Yes, of course it's correlation and not causation. But that's of little comfort as I'm being yelled at to "get in the bike lane" when there isn't even one present. It's difficult to resist the temptation to infer that what they're really saying is "you're not welcome on this road because it doesn't have a bike lane". And if a significant majority of the voting, tax-paying public begins to believe that and feel strongly about it, we cyclists - whether we prefer integration like I do or segregation like you do - are all in big trouble.

On the other hand, if and when gasoline hits $8 or $10 per gallon, maybe we'll all look back at these petty squabbles and have a good laugh at ourselves.

^^^ at least those motorists are not yelling "get on the sidewalk."

So one might say "some progress has been made."

oh the stigmata I get harassed on my bike regardless if there may be a few bike lane stripes are on a very small minority of streets in a community. and those mandatory use laws in like what, 7 states?

i suggest something more sinister is at work than roadway bike infrastructure that's causing your and high rollers awful treatments at the hands of motorists than the presence or mere existence of bikelanes maybe you guys need bigger, better well implemented and maintained bikelanes or sumpin!



tunnel, tunnel vision. can't accept bike specific infrastructure suffering tunnel vision. and can't get no respect either eh.

the FHWA has some guidelines on what can help legitimize roadway bicycling in a community steve.

they're called bike _____ and they work as parts of a ____way network to increase roadway bicycling in communities.

I've been yelled at, to 'get on the sidewalk.' I compare it to 'dogs that bark aren't the ones who bite.'

At least I know they've seen me. Talk doesn't hurt me. I figure every time I'm riding in the road I'm putting more motorists on notice that bikes belong.

On my last ride through heavy traffic, the only time I felt uncomfortable was when my route took me along a rode with a stupid bike lane stripe that was one foot from the curb and divided a narrow single lane. Without that stripe I would have felt much more comfortable simply riding in the road a reasonable distance from the curb. With the @#%&*@ stripe, I felt constrained to ride near the gutter.

This is the kind of cyclist inferiority Forester talks about and Bek glories in.

It's not the yelling that bothers me. If that were the case, I would have quit this two-wheeled obsession many years ago. Having a thick skin comes with the territory. It's the poliltical implications that are worrisome - these people vote, pay taxes, and outnumber us 100 to 1. Just when they think they've got us stashed away in the bike ghettos where we belong, here we come popping up into their way again, daring to intrude on roads that have not yet submitted to the paint brush.

'bike ghettos'

need to inject a Warsaw holocaust reference too in keeping with the VC vision? oh that's right, it's coloreds at the water fountain

do you have any empirical evidence that roadway architecture physically legitimizing bicyclists right to the road in a community somehow has the opposite effect?



anecdotes are just personal bias reporting. Somehow you're operating under the fallacious beliefs bike lanes should never have been invented and that on road bikeway networks are somehow the root of social friction between bikes and cars.

(hint= it's the speed differential and the fact you get in their way the motorists yell at you. like i said, they'd be yelling "get on the banana bus" or your high roller "hysteria train" if the concept of bikelanes never materialized)

maybe forester will take glory in your confused operation, i'm one to take pity on you.

you should learn how to ride your bike. bike lanes are not one foot wide from the curb, you were operating too close to the curb and NOT in a bikelane.

I think you need to get a little more savvy out there, danarnold and learn the difference between different roadway facilities and where to operate your bike in a vehicular manner.

"It is the dull man who is always sure, and the sure man who is always dull."
H. L. Mencken

Mencken must have your type in mind. You can't even get your facts straight. I didn't say I road in the gutter, I said I felt constrained to do so. In your silly universe, a poorly designed bike lane is not a bike lane, by Bek definition.

No wonder you're such a bike lane fan, you can't even see the ones that poorly designed. You've posted some photos of what YOU thought were good examples of proper bike lanes and you got responses that were 10 to 1 against you.

This is an example of the problem with bike lanes. They are frequently incompetently designed. This example is typical. The road is too narrow, but rather than have no stripe, or a stripe that gives an adequate bike lane, they try to shuttle the cyclist too near the gutter. The line tells the motorist he can drive up to the line and If I am on the line or in 'his' lane it increases the chance of the motorist hitting the cyclist or coming too close.

dude,

conflating an edge stripe with an AASHTO compliant bikelane is quite difficult and yet you do.

Part of the vc vision appears to be an inability to see and operate a bike along roads with road striping.

watch out!



wild, wacky stuff.

You've provided a very good description of what frequently passes for "bike lanes" in my stomping grounds. Basically just a single fog line, moved a few inches to the left of where it might otherwise be painted, on a road not wide enough to accomodate it, replete with faded bike stencils at irregular intervals, and sporting several months worth of car-swept debris. Yummy. Can't wait to get out there and ride in one of those puppies.

a few inches?


'a few inches' like in Boise at 15th and river, heading north, the bikelane to the left of all RTO traffic with an emphasized mixing zone and 'turning cars yield to bikes' signs prior to the intersection?

do all you VC troops need vision checks? aside from the reality checks sorrily needed..


okay, how many fingers am I holding up? which one?

No matter how much abuse we may heap on you, we'll have to admit that you have a sense of humor.

I'll guess the middle one.

I'm using my index finger to point you to an ample bike specific intersection treatment at 15th and river in your hometown, high roller. or am I?

by the way, in case you'd lost sight (more trouble seeing things clearly?) in just one page of the threads' tropic,

the ones being poked fun at in this thread are YOU, high roller, other VC bliviots and their ricdiculous 'vision'.

You are blissfully ignorant, Glenn Bek, but who am I to shatter your illusions?

So basically you are saying that all bike lanes are bad due to the poor application of some bike lanes.

Yeah that's a "glass is half empty" sort of attitude.

One cannot evaluate the "quality" of a bike lane until one first "knows", or thinks that others "know", the function that the bike lane is to fill. Both AASHTO and FHWA state purposes of bike lanes, but they use words so fluffy and ambiguous that no specific purpose is actually specified. And different people have different purposes in mind: the original standards designer (say at the AASHTO and FHWA level) may think that they have stated the purposes (which they haven't, not really); the local designer does just wha the manual instructs without thinking of the purpose to be fulfilled; the cyclist thinks of another purpose, while the motorist thinks of still another.

I say, again, that no bike lane can be good, although it is obvious that some are less dangerous than others. That is so because bike lanes are based on a principle that conflicts with the proper operating rules. The rules of the road are based on first-come first served, direction of travel, speed of travel, intention to turn or move laterally, turning and moving laterally, and assignment of priority right-of-way in some cases of crossing traffic. The bike-lane stripe fouls up this operation by adding a further division by the name of the vehicle.

further proof that denial is not just a river in Egypt.

actually, john, in quite a few instances a bikelane can be good. I'm confident you drive by quality examples of bikelanes that are quite good at 'proper' traffic sorting rules of speed positioning between intersections with considerate intersections fully allowing 'proper' destination positioning at intersections. I'm sure you drive your car by them quite frequently in your goings about around Lemon Grove.


john, you are stuck on rudimentary traffic sorting rules. traffic 101 in a manner of speaking. how frosh of you.

Have you heard of the Braess's paradox? please explain it in the context of this street films carmageddon averted

food for frosh thought more than anything

Have you been to New York City John?

check this 2009 streetfilms video out -but sit down first, it mught make your blood boil so be careful before opening....

bikelanes in the big apple

check out this 2009 guide to bike infrastructure in NYC.

by the way ,since there are some new inroads in the USA you're not up to speed on, TRUE Vehicular Cyclists are not stymied by the presence of quality bike infrastructure.

Yes, Bek, I have been on the streets of NYC many times, many times afoot, a few times by car, but never by bicycle. And, Bek, not only have I viewed the rather carefully staged propaganda by NYC to which you refer, I have also seen video scenes of real cyclists (John Allen and friends) navigating the new sidepaths along Ninth Ave and area in normal traffic. The Ninth Ave sidepath scenes depict all the troubles to be expected with sidepaths. The NYC propaganda presents all the usual propaganda and even some lies about the supposed advantages of their facilities, without discussing the real problems that their facilities fail to solve. The NYC presentation makes one reasonable statement, that NYC is attempting to provide the additional signal phases that are required when sidepaths are installed; but, of course, the additional phases, with their concomitant additional delays, are required only to attempt to cure the traffic conflict dangers created by sidepaths.

Fit,fast, riders always seem to be anti bike lanes. Slower rider usually like bike lanes.They know they don't want to drag along at 12 mph holding back angry drivers, so a lane is just fine for them.If you can sustain 25 mph, sure take a lane, you aren't really holding back most city drivers.

This is one of those elite vs the rest of us issues.The rest of us rarely frequent bike forums of course, so any survey here wouldn't really tell us much.

Being really upset because a legitimate cyclist is slowing legitimate motorists is a clear sign of the cyclist-inferiority phobia. Just don't bother about the opinions of ignorant motorists when you know that you are operating legitimately. The problem is that most Americans don't know what legitimate operation is; they think that they should bow down to the superior motorist.

Riding 12MPH down a 50MPH road will bring the wrath of motorists...

So what? I've frequently done this, and all I feel is superiority over those who erroneously believe that speed makes right. They have the speed to overtake; let them overtake in the normal manner, as with any other slow driver.

Now, if the circumstances are such as to prevent overtaking for a long distance, which, if it occurs at all, is usually on a road that does not permit 50mph traveling, and if there is a safe place for a cyclist to stop to let the waiting traffic overtake, then I do so. The law says that when five or more vehicles are behind, that stop, where safe, is mandatory, but I will do so with less of a train.

That's faster than the Amish buggies go here...on 45-55mph speed limit roads (where of course people like to drive 70). WTF ever happened to people having manners and respect for others? The root problem here is not slow bicycles on the road, the root problem is the devolution of our society to the point were being an asshat is normal, accepted behavior.

My motto for drivers, whether I am riding or driving: "If you're in such a hurry use the freakin interstate system we spent/spend trillions of dollars on. Otherwise, slow the f down and have a little patience and courtesy."

But just like drivers, many cyclists are too rude, inpatient and incompetent to give a crap about traffic laws, let alone common courtesy. Seriously, too many cyclists would rather hug the gutter and allow traffic to squeeze them, or hog the lane just cuz they can, because they are still moving. To take the lane but then actually pull off and stop our forward progress to allow others to pass, is as sinful as slowing forward momentum for things like stop signs and traffic lights. WTF, the drivers are the enemy...why should we lower ourselves to be courteous to the bastiges!

This concept of courtesy by cyclists to motorists is crazy, John...and the thought of actually stopping a bike, on purpose, is pure heresy - thou shalt be sacrificed at the altar of the bike lane gods!