I'm a little confused as to why the 'VC' subforum exists.
05-08-10, 08:12 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by i-like-to-bike
semantic nit picking over the term "uppity".
05-08-10, 08:22 AM
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https://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-den1.htm
(Interesting that "blackpoliticalthought" has no problem using the word.)
https://blackpoliticalthought.blogspo...erland+Gazette)
(While a few people attempt to paint "denigrate" as being racist it appears that the usage of the word does not have racial overtones.)
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-08-10 at 09:48 AM.
05-08-10, 08:53 AM
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why WAS this subforum created anyway? the hysterical petty arguments were coloring the main safety and advocacy forum. seems like some posters can't help but derail the threads into petty off topic semantic tirades to the extent any valid discussion is lost in the noise.
and its really too bad. it has driven posters like patc up in Canada off the forum.
and its really too bad. it has driven posters like patc up in Canada off the forum.
05-08-10, 09:15 AM
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genec and myself and bek appear to agree mostly about chipseal's "position" (so to speak).
Anyway, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that people don't often agree. If the discussion is made honestly and without the leading/loading rhetorical stuff that "certain" people employ to "support" their position, people might learn something about other perspectives.
Anyway, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that people don't often agree. If the discussion is made honestly and without the leading/loading rhetorical stuff that "certain" people employ to "support" their position, people might learn something about other perspectives.
05-08-10, 10:25 AM
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Its my (American; primarily Californian) perspective that most roads are in place for all forms of transportation. Few roads have specific accommodations for any specific type of vehicle- the basic 'road' is a bare strip of pavement (I'm not sure if a white line on either side is even a legal requirement for a road). Sometimes, there are posted limits to follow- lines to pilot your vehicle between, speed limits to obey, maximum height and weight allowances- but not always, and in an absence of posted limits (and in addition to them), all rules default to the vehicle code.
Of course, in many places, there are bike lanes and separated bike paths- but they're not everywhere (in fact, they're only on a tiny percentage of roads in the US). I'm assuming a non-'vehicular cyclist' would default to the shoulder of a road in the absence of a designated bike lane, which would increase the percentage of roads usable to non-'vehicular cyclists', but would not be 100%. This means that its (currently) impossible to be a non-'vehicular cyclist' on all roads. Also, a non-'vehicular cyclist' on a road, with or without specific accommodations for a bicycle will always be a vehicle and subject to the vehicle code.
My point is that I think this part of the forum is organized backwards, and that the separation is bizarre. I realize that it sounds like I'm taking the term 'vehicular cycling' too literally, but I think splitting cyclists into specific camps is unnecessary. I consider myself a 'vehicular cyclist' because I ride on the roads with everyone else- but you'll typically (not always) find me on the shoulder or bike lane if there was a separated bike path that was faster or safer than the road, I'd use that too. By the typical definitions, I'm not a hardcore 'vehicular cyclist', nor am I whatever the other school of thought calls itself.
Bike lanes and bike paths are tools, just like the law is a tool and my bike is a tool. When I ride, I try to use the best tool for the job. I feel that vehicular cycling is the norm, and the use of additional cycling infrastructure is a bonus, but not the default method of cycling.
Sorry if that was long-winded, redundant, and/or pedantic.
Forum suggestion: If a separation in the forum is truly needed, eliminate 'VC' and install 'Grandma, Not Lycra' or, uhh, 'Progress Toward the European-Style Cycling Utopia' in its place.
Of course, in many places, there are bike lanes and separated bike paths- but they're not everywhere (in fact, they're only on a tiny percentage of roads in the US). I'm assuming a non-'vehicular cyclist' would default to the shoulder of a road in the absence of a designated bike lane, which would increase the percentage of roads usable to non-'vehicular cyclists', but would not be 100%. This means that its (currently) impossible to be a non-'vehicular cyclist' on all roads. Also, a non-'vehicular cyclist' on a road, with or without specific accommodations for a bicycle will always be a vehicle and subject to the vehicle code.
My point is that I think this part of the forum is organized backwards, and that the separation is bizarre. I realize that it sounds like I'm taking the term 'vehicular cycling' too literally, but I think splitting cyclists into specific camps is unnecessary. I consider myself a 'vehicular cyclist' because I ride on the roads with everyone else- but you'll typically (not always) find me on the shoulder or bike lane if there was a separated bike path that was faster or safer than the road, I'd use that too. By the typical definitions, I'm not a hardcore 'vehicular cyclist', nor am I whatever the other school of thought calls itself.
Bike lanes and bike paths are tools, just like the law is a tool and my bike is a tool. When I ride, I try to use the best tool for the job. I feel that vehicular cycling is the norm, and the use of additional cycling infrastructure is a bonus, but not the default method of cycling.
Sorry if that was long-winded, redundant, and/or pedantic.
Forum suggestion: If a separation in the forum is truly needed, eliminate 'VC' and install 'Grandma, Not Lycra' or, uhh, 'Progress Toward the European-Style Cycling Utopia' in its place.
05-08-10, 11:24 AM
#34
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Yeah. I figured it was for some sort of school of cycling thought I wasn't understanding- I didn't think before that it was created specifically as a reaction to the behavior of posters.
Chris- I'd say you should consider yourself a VC because your description of yourself fits the title of one exactly. I feel that someday, after taking a right/left hook or two, I might be firmly in your camp, rather than just skirting it.
Mikeshoup- Wandering from my topic a little- I see two divides in this forum- one is of the different beliefs of what a truly 'safe' cycling environment is (possibly defined as complete roadway integration/VC-ing on one side, and complete segregation on the other), and the divide of what resources currently exist for those types of riding to take place (aggressive VC-ing for short rides in a dense urban city that possesses an exemplary cycling infrastructure makes as much sense as a cyclist avoiding riding on roads when he lives in a rural area with zero cycling or pedestrian infrastructure. I think laws change interpretations of conditions, too- when cycling in most cities in CA, the bike lanes and the laws regarding their use make them a beneficial tool; if the proposed change to FL law (presented in a recent thread) goes through, it would make their bike lanes prisons. Just thinking.
Chris- I'd say you should consider yourself a VC because your description of yourself fits the title of one exactly. I feel that someday, after taking a right/left hook or two, I might be firmly in your camp, rather than just skirting it.
Mikeshoup- Wandering from my topic a little- I see two divides in this forum- one is of the different beliefs of what a truly 'safe' cycling environment is (possibly defined as complete roadway integration/VC-ing on one side, and complete segregation on the other), and the divide of what resources currently exist for those types of riding to take place (aggressive VC-ing for short rides in a dense urban city that possesses an exemplary cycling infrastructure makes as much sense as a cyclist avoiding riding on roads when he lives in a rural area with zero cycling or pedestrian infrastructure. I think laws change interpretations of conditions, too- when cycling in most cities in CA, the bike lanes and the laws regarding their use make them a beneficial tool; if the proposed change to FL law (presented in a recent thread) goes through, it would make their bike lanes prisons. Just thinking.
Last edited by Raiden; 05-08-10 at 12:20 PM.
05-08-10, 10:10 PM
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Yeah. I figured it was for some sort of school of cycling thought I wasn't understanding- I didn't think before that it was created specifically as a reaction to the behavior of posters.
Chris- I'd say you should consider yourself a VC because your description of yourself fits the title of one exactly. I feel that someday, after taking a right/left hook or two, I might be firmly in your camp, rather than just skirting it.
Chris- I'd say you should consider yourself a VC because your description of yourself fits the title of one exactly. I feel that someday, after taking a right/left hook or two, I might be firmly in your camp, rather than just skirting it.
05-10-10, 08:57 AM
#36
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.......
Mikeshoup- Wandering from my topic a little- I see two divides in this forum- one is of the different beliefs of what a truly 'safe' cycling environment is (possibly defined as complete roadway integration/VC-ing on one side, and complete segregation on the other), and the divide of what resources currently exist for those types of riding to take place (aggressive VC-ing for short rides in a dense urban city that possesses an exemplary cycling infrastructure makes as much sense as a cyclist avoiding riding on roads when he lives in a rural area with zero cycling or pedestrian infrastructure. I think laws change interpretations of conditions, too- when cycling in most cities in CA, the bike lanes and the laws regarding their use make them a beneficial tool; if the proposed change to FL law (presented in a recent thread) goes through, it would make their bike lanes prisons. Just thinking.
Mikeshoup- Wandering from my topic a little- I see two divides in this forum- one is of the different beliefs of what a truly 'safe' cycling environment is (possibly defined as complete roadway integration/VC-ing on one side, and complete segregation on the other), and the divide of what resources currently exist for those types of riding to take place (aggressive VC-ing for short rides in a dense urban city that possesses an exemplary cycling infrastructure makes as much sense as a cyclist avoiding riding on roads when he lives in a rural area with zero cycling or pedestrian infrastructure. I think laws change interpretations of conditions, too- when cycling in most cities in CA, the bike lanes and the laws regarding their use make them a beneficial tool; if the proposed change to FL law (presented in a recent thread) goes through, it would make their bike lanes prisons. Just thinking.
you need to do a little more thinking about bicycling. there is no false ideal to be reached of 'absolute' safety thru infrastructure.
plans to facilitate bicycling in communities can and often are vehicular by design and do not contradict vehicular operation by bicyclists.
why would mandatory bikelane use be beneficial in California and Oregon but lead to hysterical visions of prisions in florida?
design of roadway architecture and traffic controls can include bike-specific elements that vehicular cyclists can and will use in a vehicular manner and will likely be the default roadway bicycling position for thru bicycle traffic on any given well-designed right of way.
This separate forum was created to shunt a lot of static off the main forum. its a shame the quality of some of the posters led to this subforum. perhaps i had a hand in it, but i think there's clear differences between strong, argumentative debate and petty, nitpicking semantic thread derailment.
05-10-10, 05:48 PM
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Also, by 'infrastructure', I'm talking about even the most basic elements, down to streetsweeping and fixing potholes.
why would mandatory bikelane use be beneficial in California and Oregon but lead to hysterical visions of prisions in florida?
design of roadway architecture and traffic controls can include bike-specific elements that vehicular cyclists can and will use in a vehicular manner and will likely be the default roadway bicycling position for thru bicycle traffic on any given well-designed right of way.
design of roadway architecture and traffic controls can include bike-specific elements that vehicular cyclists can and will use in a vehicular manner and will likely be the default roadway bicycling position for thru bicycle traffic on any given well-designed right of way.
Check the picture in the second post. If that's a recently-built road in FL, and the proposed edit to the law were to go through, I'm afraid that bikelane is going to kill somebody. Even if the dashed line were to allow a bike into the lane, its too short to actually be used. There's no way to avoid a right hook.
05-12-10, 01:33 PM
#38
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I thought that it was a place where rants could go unimpeded.
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05-12-10, 01:34 PM
#39
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Is it beneficial? Why?
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05-12-10, 07:47 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by sgoodri
Is it beneficial? Why?
I'd suggest you and the OP both read the latest AASHTO proposed revisions to the bicycle manual, it explains and outlines better planning for bikes in the transportation mix, some of which includes class specific lanes for some traffic conditions/ types of travel corridors.
this should all be covered in other threads already....
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-12-10 at 08:20 PM.
05-12-10, 07:51 PM
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No, actually not. i still can't start a thread to ask John Forester to clarify one of his blanket proclamation about bicyclists rights without the threads getting locked & shut down because of all the rabble. then some moderators actually delete the entire thread. you've been a poster in some of the disappearing threads..
this place is contentious but it is NOT a place they allow ranting to go on unimpeded. Just watch what happens next. If my forecast of one of the forum user's reaction is correct, this thread has a chance to go ballistic since i even mentioned johns erroneous proclamations about cyclists rights in all 50 states.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-12-10 at 08:17 PM.
05-12-10, 08:13 PM
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I'm replying to the OP, who makes excellent points. I believe that much of this contentiousness and division (and sub, sub divisions) comes from the same quality that makes some people ardent cyclists. There is as psychological component to their motivation, some kind of need for exclusivity, of ownership of 'cycling,' as if it were their private domain, their own invention. They guard this neurotic belief jealously. Some of these folk are simply bigots. They advocate cycling as an end in itself and put cycling and bicycles above any other form of transportation or machine. Then they launch themselves from there to the notion that there is some ideal way to cycle: THEIR way.
Although I share the notion that the bicycle is an almost ideal form of transportation, I am more concerned that machines, whether bicycles, cars, or weaving looms, be operated safely and competently, as opposed to the notion that operators of any particular type of machine are automatically superior to others.
Although I share the notion that the bicycle is an almost ideal form of transportation, I am more concerned that machines, whether bicycles, cars, or weaving looms, be operated safely and competently, as opposed to the notion that operators of any particular type of machine are automatically superior to others.
05-12-10, 10:46 PM
#43
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Bicycle bigots have got to be better than some of the other bigots. 
active transportation activists that aspire for bicyclist amenable communities, communities where more of the citizenry feels empowered to engage in public road bicycling are the big bad bigots. right.... hows your local bike master plan coming, dan? getting bigger, better shoulders and bikelanes yet?
i'd think for all the benefits attendant with bicycling, its' not a mistaken belief in the superior value from normalizing bicycling as transportation for more of the american public. Benefits that are as far reaching as senior mobility and mental health in addition to the more obvious benefits from encouraging and normalizing bicycling as a viable mode of personal transportation.
sure, notions of elitist roadway bicycling on autocentric roads with nerves of steel, an assertive nature and reflexes of a cat must make some cyclists feel real special. Those cyclists must be the bigots dan arnold is looking for.
active transportation activists that aspire for bicyclist amenable communities, communities where more of the citizenry feels empowered to engage in public road bicycling are the big bad bigots. right.... hows your local bike master plan coming, dan? getting bigger, better shoulders and bikelanes yet?
i'd think for all the benefits attendant with bicycling, its' not a mistaken belief in the superior value from normalizing bicycling as transportation for more of the american public. Benefits that are as far reaching as senior mobility and mental health in addition to the more obvious benefits from encouraging and normalizing bicycling as a viable mode of personal transportation.
sure, notions of elitist roadway bicycling on autocentric roads with nerves of steel, an assertive nature and reflexes of a cat must make some cyclists feel real special. Those cyclists must be the bigots dan arnold is looking for.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-12-10 at 11:00 PM.
05-13-10, 05:26 PM
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No, actually not. i still can't start a thread to ask John Forester to clarify one of his blanket proclamation about bicyclists rights without the threads getting locked & shut down because of all the rabble. then some moderators actually delete the entire thread. you've been a poster in some of the disappearing threads..
this place is contentious but it is NOT a place they allow ranting to go on unimpeded. Just watch what happens next. If my forecast of one of the forum user's reaction is correct, this thread has a chance to go ballistic since i even mentioned johns erroneous proclamations about cyclists rights in all 50 states.
this place is contentious but it is NOT a place they allow ranting to go on unimpeded. Just watch what happens next. If my forecast of one of the forum user's reaction is correct, this thread has a chance to go ballistic since i even mentioned johns erroneous proclamations about cyclists rights in all 50 states.
05-13-10, 06:28 PM
#45
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05-13-10, 08:02 PM
#46
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the OP called california bike lane laws benficial. maybe he just meant the bikelanes?
05-13-10, 08:04 PM
#47
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It is obvious that Bek and I have different views about the legal status of cyclists in many states. I have worked with the governmental and quasi-governmental committees that write traffic laws, some of my words appear in the laws regarding cyclists, one of the aspects of my profession is advising attorneys of the meaning of the laws in their states. I feel no need to say more about this subject.
did you or did you not make that erroneous proclamation about cyclists rights, john forester? because you did, you have, and it is not just misleading but grossly incorrect. there are several states that have no lateral lane positioning restriction on bicyclists. Additionally, laws regulating cyclists riding riding safely right do not often apply on multiple lane roads or when there is no overtaking traffic.
we can discuss this in another thread, john forester, if you'd care to.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-13-10 at 08:09 PM.
05-13-10, 10:22 PM
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In comparison, I disliked the proposed changes to the law in Florida because I feel they limited a cyclist's options. (I won't disagree that my opinion of the proposed change might be hyterical/knee-jerk.)
05-13-10, 10:31 PM
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I fail to understand why someone wouldn't use a perfectly good shoulder, if they are moving slower than the normal flow of traffic. Of course, I would probably fathom a guess that someone who refuses to use a perfectly good shoulder, might be the same person who drives 10mph under the speed limit in a car on a one lane highway without provisions for passing, and refuses to pull off to the side to let the 20 cars behind them pass.
05-14-10, 09:13 AM
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Anyway, the notion that any thing expressed here is seen by any significant number of people is highly risable.