I'm a little confused as to why the 'VC' subforum exists.
08-12-10, 10:09 AM
#101
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Just because Andy says that many cyclists don't get hit while riding in door zones doesn't make door zones a good location to encourage cycling. It conflicts with best practices and what we teach in the LAB courses, which is why there is so much debate over the internal LAB document you quote from.
Striping a generous buffer between the parking spaces and bike lane is a good idea, like you say. But that's not what's in the AASHTO guide; the AASHTO guide, like the MUTCD, is seriously flawed wrt bike lane placement at on-street parking.
Striping a generous buffer between the parking spaces and bike lane is a good idea, like you say. But that's not what's in the AASHTO guide; the AASHTO guide, like the MUTCD, is seriously flawed wrt bike lane placement at on-street parking.
steve, local studies of bikelaned roads to AASHTO minimums do not mirror your concerns; what happens is the indexed accident rates along bikelaned corridors striped even to the AASHTO minimums goes DOWN. a reduction in the indexed incidence rate of accidents.
Darting in and out of parked cars is reduced, sidewalk and wrong way cycling is reduced, cognition of bicycle traffic by motorists and a general improvement in cyclists visible road position improved along double striped bikelane corridors. the alternative you present is fraught with greater numbers of wrong way, sidewalk and curbhugging, door zone riding cycling behavior.
these findings are replicated in cities aross the country that place aashto complaint roadway architecture: bikelane on Valencia in SF increases bike traffic 144 percent, bike accidents remain flat. repeated on corridor after corridor of AASHTO compliant Class II bikeway after another in city after city......
And rememember, that door zone is present on ALL roads with parallel street parking. the design standards for class II bikeways, despite overblown concerns, are actually effective at enhancing cyclist safety along these bikeway'd corridors.
.
Last edited by Bekologist; 08-12-10 at 10:52 AM.
08-12-10, 11:28 AM
#102
You gonna eat that?
IMHO In all fairness, if you are going to call out JF you should also call out Bek. His position that bikeways are the solution to all and everything else, especially JF, sucks is not helpful. He has what seems to be a constant vendetta against VC and JF in particular that I feel takes away a lot of meaning full discussion.
Another big advocate for VC is Keri Caffrey of CommuteOrlando. But even when she takes issue with another's riding style, she manages to do it in a positive, respectful tone. She also puts her money where mouth is, investing a lot of time and energy to produce videos to show exactly why and how VC works. She is a good example of someone who is very much behind VC and also gets along well with the bicycle advocacy community.
JF started a movement; I'll give him credit for that. But I think he has become a negative ambassador for that which he seeks to promote, and in doing a negative ambassador for cycling.
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi 
"However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
08-13-10, 06:48 AM
#103
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I have to admit I had higher hopes for this subforum as well. As a tactic by the moderators to isolate the bickering and temper tantrums to one location, though, it has been remarkably successful.
Maybe the grown-ups should just return to the main Advocacy & Safety forum, where they can engage in intelligent discourse about cyclist equality and defensive cycling strategies without getting all the bite marks on their ankles.
The inferiority cycling devotees can stay here, celebrating their glorious paint ‘n’ path revolution, defending the motoring establishment’s government-backed anti-cycling policies, and perpetuating their shrill ad hominem assaults against the big, bad, VC meanies, all of it articulated with the literary and logical prowess of an eleven year old text messaging fanatic. We could rename it the Childish Cycling subforum.
Maybe the grown-ups should just return to the main Advocacy & Safety forum, where they can engage in intelligent discourse about cyclist equality and defensive cycling strategies without getting all the bite marks on their ankles.
The inferiority cycling devotees can stay here, celebrating their glorious paint ‘n’ path revolution, defending the motoring establishment’s government-backed anti-cycling policies, and perpetuating their shrill ad hominem assaults against the big, bad, VC meanies, all of it articulated with the literary and logical prowess of an eleven year old text messaging fanatic. We could rename it the Childish Cycling subforum.
Last edited by High Roller; 08-13-10 at 07:14 AM.
08-13-10, 07:47 AM
#104
genec
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But I don't see Bek as being harmful to the overall image of cyclists. JF, in my opinion, is. I think JF's ideas and methods for navigating a bike as just another vehicle are splendid. But he goes too far and alienates those who seek to advocate for cycling because they don't agree that VC is the only way. Bek....Bek is a guy that posts on a forum. I go to a city meeting and mention John Forester and people know who I'm talking about as well as his reputation (both the good and the bad). Mention Bekologist at the same meeting and you get blank stares.
Another big advocate for VC is Keri Caffrey of CommuteOrlando. But even when she takes issue with another's riding style, she manages to do it in a positive, respectful tone. She also puts her money where mouth is, investing a lot of time and energy to produce videos to show exactly why and how VC works. She is a good example of someone who is very much behind VC and also gets along well with the bicycle advocacy community.
JF started a movement; I'll give him credit for that. But I think he has become a negative ambassador for that which he seeks to promote, and in doing a negative ambassador for cycling.
Another big advocate for VC is Keri Caffrey of CommuteOrlando. But even when she takes issue with another's riding style, she manages to do it in a positive, respectful tone. She also puts her money where mouth is, investing a lot of time and energy to produce videos to show exactly why and how VC works. She is a good example of someone who is very much behind VC and also gets along well with the bicycle advocacy community.
JF started a movement; I'll give him credit for that. But I think he has become a negative ambassador for that which he seeks to promote, and in doing a negative ambassador for cycling.
The LAB with their silly "Tupperware" training model for teaching cycling doesn't help much either... that methodology ensures that it is difficult to find effective cycle training... which then leads to the situation of poorly trained cyclists as a general part of the population and perpetuates the thinking that bikes are toys (at least in the US).
Cycle training should follow the SCUBA shop model, where training is offered in connection with the shops and encouraged by the shop to further the activity. Bike shops could also be the forefront of "political" activities that further the advances of cycling in their area.
As it is now, this "division of labor" tends to depower cycling advocacy as a whole.
08-13-10, 07:56 AM
#105
You gonna eat that?
This is true of bike shops and clubs in my area. When the city council voted to approve the bicycle plan, a local club got sponsorships from other clubs and shops and the result was a sea of yellow t-shirst advocating passage of the plan in the council chambers.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
08-13-10, 08:00 AM
#106
totally louche
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High roller is confused as to why this forum was created. it is to quarantine the vehicular cycling advocacy discussion out of the mature forum, as the vc contingent and their "noisy, aggressive and destructive' dystopic bicycling message interferes with reasonable discussion.
the vc message was the cause for creating this forum.
the problem isn't bicycling advocacy that has created this forum, it was the rants of the VC and the incessant drumbeat of their fantasies.
Its a place for the VC to come in and blatantly lie and mislead about traffic laws, etc. (misleading about maryland traffic law, CVC 21202, etc....)
can we call these people bicycle advocates? not so sure......
the vc message was the cause for creating this forum.
Originally Posted by copenhagenize blog
It is a small, yet vocal, group that is male-dominated, testosterone-driven and that lacks basic understanding of human nature. They expect that everyone should be just like them - classic sub-cultural point of view - and that everyone should embrace cycling in traffic and pretending they are cars. They are apparently uninterested in seeing grandmothers, mothers or fathers with children or anyone who doesn't resemble then contributing to re-creating the foundations of liveable cities by reestablishing the bicycle as transport.
Calling them a Sect is cheeky, sure. But so many aspects of this group resemble a sect. They have a Guru or two, whom they seem to worship. There's John Forester in the US and John Franklin, to a lesser extent, in the UK. Their numbers are few but they are noisy. They are aggressive. And their influence is destructive..........
There is nowhere in the world where this theory has become practice and caused great numbers of citizens to take to the roads on a daily basis. It remains a theoretical manifesto for a fringe group of cyclists. They often refer to themselves as 'bicycle drivers'. Vroom Vroom.
.........
They are unable to see that when you have a large percentage of the population riding bicycles, the benefits to society are overwhelmingly positive. They are also blind to the developments in Emerging Bicycle Cultures like French cities, Spanish cities and even cities like Dublin, Portland, New York, Philadelphia, etc etc. People are returning to the bicycle thanks to infrastructure and taming of the bull. All over the world..............Can we call these people bicycle advocates? I'm not sure..
Calling them a Sect is cheeky, sure. But so many aspects of this group resemble a sect. They have a Guru or two, whom they seem to worship. There's John Forester in the US and John Franklin, to a lesser extent, in the UK. Their numbers are few but they are noisy. They are aggressive. And their influence is destructive..........
There is nowhere in the world where this theory has become practice and caused great numbers of citizens to take to the roads on a daily basis. It remains a theoretical manifesto for a fringe group of cyclists. They often refer to themselves as 'bicycle drivers'. Vroom Vroom.
.........
They are unable to see that when you have a large percentage of the population riding bicycles, the benefits to society are overwhelmingly positive. They are also blind to the developments in Emerging Bicycle Cultures like French cities, Spanish cities and even cities like Dublin, Portland, New York, Philadelphia, etc etc. People are returning to the bicycle thanks to infrastructure and taming of the bull. All over the world..............Can we call these people bicycle advocates? I'm not sure..
the problem isn't bicycling advocacy that has created this forum, it was the rants of the VC and the incessant drumbeat of their fantasies.
Its a place for the VC to come in and blatantly lie and mislead about traffic laws, etc. (misleading about maryland traffic law, CVC 21202, etc....)
can we call these people bicycle advocates? not so sure......
Last edited by Bekologist; 08-13-10 at 08:06 AM.
08-13-10, 08:13 AM
#107
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In my area there are clubs that are involved, but most of the bike shops are clueless... I ask about training when I go into the shops to leave pamphlets that discuss cycling and Street Smarts web site. I keep reminding them... and I continue to get clueless stares... "who would need training," "you mean for racing?"
08-13-10, 08:18 AM
#108
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actually, the NBDA and the LAB are teaming up on bike ed 1-2-3- programs that are geared towards bike shop employees and basic training from the shops.....
still in the early phases, it will likely get adopted more vigorously in the next couple of years- education in safe road riding behaviors from the bicycle industry working in concert with the LAB.
this reality is a far cry from what jf and some of the rest of the vc-addled wholly fabricate about these two groups.
still in the early phases, it will likely get adopted more vigorously in the next couple of years- education in safe road riding behaviors from the bicycle industry working in concert with the LAB.
this reality is a far cry from what jf and some of the rest of the vc-addled wholly fabricate about these two groups.
08-13-10, 08:36 AM
#109
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Even benign, trivial comments are enough to drive him into a frothy rage!
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-13-10 at 08:40 AM.
08-13-10, 08:36 AM
#110
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Ad hominem attacks and name-calling simply don't belong in a forum like this, no matter what the source. But for those of us who prefer not to deal with the adults who behave like children, there's always the forum's 'ignore' feature (click on a member's name, view profile, add to ignore list). With such a feature, the forum rewards intelligent and respectful members and effectively silences the folks who everyone knows are the real jerks.
Last edited by ianbrettcooper; 08-13-10 at 08:52 AM.
08-13-10, 08:39 AM
#111
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When posters come into this forum and repeatedly mislead, misinform about bicyclists rights, there will be some heated discussion.
(cvc21202 prohibits vehicular cycling, maryland traffic law requires cyclists operate as far right as possible, etc....)
these oft repeated, misleading messages found here from the vc is counter to safe cycling and misinforms cyclists about their rights in most all states.
i do my best to be a voice of studied and supported reason on here.
if the guilty parties would stop with the denigratory, wholly misleading and fraudulent diatribe, i would be happy to discuss issues on a more reasonable basis.
(cvc21202 prohibits vehicular cycling, maryland traffic law requires cyclists operate as far right as possible, etc....)
these oft repeated, misleading messages found here from the vc is counter to safe cycling and misinforms cyclists about their rights in most all states.
i do my best to be a voice of studied and supported reason on here.
if the guilty parties would stop with the denigratory, wholly misleading and fraudulent diatribe, i would be happy to discuss issues on a more reasonable basis.
Last edited by Bekologist; 08-13-10 at 08:45 AM.
08-13-10, 08:48 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by high roller
Maybe the grown-ups should just return to the main Advocacy & Safety forum, where they can engage in intelligent discourse about cyclist equality and defensive cycling strategies without getting all the bite marks on their ankles.
The inferiority cycling devotees can stay here, celebrating their glorious paint ‘n’ path revolution, defending the motoring establishment’s government-backed anti-cycling policies, and perpetuating their shrill ad hominem assaults against the big, bad, VC meanies, all of it articulated with the literary and logical prowess of an eleven year old text messaging fanatic. We could rename it the Childish Cycling subforum.
The inferiority cycling devotees can stay here, celebrating their glorious paint ‘n’ path revolution, defending the motoring establishment’s government-backed anti-cycling policies, and perpetuating their shrill ad hominem assaults against the big, bad, VC meanies, all of it articulated with the literary and logical prowess of an eleven year old text messaging fanatic. We could rename it the Childish Cycling subforum.
Originally Posted by bekologist
actually, the NBDA and the LAB are teaming up on bike ed 1-2-3- programs that are geared towards bike shop employees and basic training from the shops.....
still in the early phases, it will likely get adopted more vigorously in the next couple of years- education in safe road riding behaviors from the bicycle industry working in concert with the LAB.
this reality is a far cry from what jf and some of the rest of the vc-addled wholly fabricate about these two groups.
still in the early phases, it will likely get adopted more vigorously in the next couple of years- education in safe road riding behaviors from the bicycle industry working in concert with the LAB.
this reality is a far cry from what jf and some of the rest of the vc-addled wholly fabricate about these two groups.
08-13-10, 08:51 AM
#113
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maybe njkayaker meant my post at the top of the page? 'noisy, angry and destructive**********?' maybe its destructive to the foundation of the VC fantasy castle.
yeah, that must be it!
yeah, that must be it!
08-13-10, 09:08 AM
#114
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A better example is when you completely lost it when I posted a link to Allen's VC technique guide to answer somebody's benign question about technique.
Last edited by njkayaker; 08-13-10 at 09:13 AM.
08-13-10, 09:14 AM
#115
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...lets try not to obsessively turn the next couple pages of posts into petty, personal attacks, shall we, njkayaker?
this MO has been displayed by some pots trying to call the kettle black in here, as i am sure you are aware
this MO has been displayed by some pots trying to call the kettle black in here, as i am sure you are aware
08-13-10, 09:24 AM
#116
You gonna eat that?
This thread is looking more an more like a pig wrestling match. We're all getting muddy, but the pigs enjoy it.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
08-13-10, 09:27 AM
#117
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can i be the greased pig/whipping boy? ive got nothing better to do, broken clavicle is keeping me off bike and in need of distracting sidelines
08-13-10, 09:35 AM
#118
You gonna eat that?
08-13-10, 10:00 AM
#119
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People want an explanation of why this is a separate subforum. Things like your behavior are part of the reason. Thus, my comments are not a "personal attack". They are on topic!
08-13-10, 10:15 AM
#121
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pot, meet kettle!
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berchman
Vehicular Cycling (VC)
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09-02-13 01:54 AM
