The facts about cycling in Holland
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Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.
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In NYC (at least), you'd also have to figure out a way from keeping the bikes from getting stolen.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-07-13 at 06:02 PM.
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#480
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....addled from all the fumes.
What sorry apologists for the automobile era. Have to figure out a way to keep the bicycles from getting stolen in NYC.... yep, cyclists in NYC better just pack it in then, no sense riding THERE.
where is car use among young people declining? Is bike forums the sole source of your current events, njkayaker? This is now common knowledge - cultural literacy, dig?
Despite it's purported 'conveniences', private automobile dependancy is not a net positive for american or british society, a fact most of you are obtusely trying to deny.
nor was it for the dutch, something they deliberately and structurally altered as a society after the car rose to dominate dutch roads in the 2 decades after WWII.
What sorry apologists for the automobile era. Have to figure out a way to keep the bicycles from getting stolen in NYC.... yep, cyclists in NYC better just pack it in then, no sense riding THERE.
Originally Posted by njkayaker
"Look at" what? You don't show a source. Where is this happening?
Despite it's purported 'conveniences', private automobile dependancy is not a net positive for american or british society, a fact most of you are obtusely trying to deny.
nor was it for the dutch, something they deliberately and structurally altered as a society after the car rose to dominate dutch roads in the 2 decades after WWII.
Last edited by Bekologist; 04-07-13 at 07:36 PM.
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screw "build it and they will come".
my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".
The only person you're cheating is yourself.
in fact, one of my primary criticisms of separated infrastructure is that it seeks co-existance with motorists. i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
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Who is this "we" you speak of? You and the rest of the bold ***** slappers?
#483
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I added the bold to the quote below:
In U.S. cities, in some urban and suburban community situations, I think there is potential for a wide range of the population irregardless of wealth, class or income, to be interested in riding and walking rather than driving. Where the infrastructure for walking and biking sucks...and in my own suburban neighborhood, I can easily cite examples...that's a deal killer. People...what range of types and what percent is anyone's guess...will put up with heat, cold, or rain to get a little workout walking or biking on a trip to do shopping, but for some of them, the hazards of cars whooshing by, will have them reaching for the car keys every time.
Well, many, many people would like to be able to ride a bike peacefully and safe. Or so they say, and that should of course be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, though not all segments of the population are equally ready to choose a bike instead of a car for shorter rides, there's no doubt that the potential IS there. Look at the dwindling number of youths getting a driver's license or a car. There may well be a paradigm shift going on.
Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.
Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.
In U.S. cities, in some urban and suburban community situations, I think there is potential for a wide range of the population irregardless of wealth, class or income, to be interested in riding and walking rather than driving. Where the infrastructure for walking and biking sucks...and in my own suburban neighborhood, I can easily cite examples...that's a deal killer. People...what range of types and what percent is anyone's guess...will put up with heat, cold, or rain to get a little workout walking or biking on a trip to do shopping, but for some of them, the hazards of cars whooshing by, will have them reaching for the car keys every time.
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good lord, let's hope so.
....................
oh, you know, like how it's done everywhere modal share has shifted away from the automobile -
adjust the costs, access, licensing, equipment and transportation network to accurately reflect, or at least partially offset, the externalities associated with driving.
....................
Who is driving these cars? Is it city dwellers? If it's people in the suburbs commuting, the alternative isn't going to be bicycling.
People really like cars. We are seeing it in China and India (at a time where the problems of automobiles is well-known).
How do you propose getting people to take up cycling to replace something they really like?
People really like cars. We are seeing it in China and India (at a time where the problems of automobiles is well-known).
How do you propose getting people to take up cycling to replace something they really like?
adjust the costs, access, licensing, equipment and transportation network to accurately reflect, or at least partially offset, the externalities associated with driving.
#485
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway
NYC: Population: 7 million. Subway 1.65 billion rides (in 2012). A factor of 235 (rides per capita).
Amsterdam. Population 820,000. Subway: 290,000 passengers (in 2009) A factor of 0.35 (rides per capita). (It's not clear how much of it is actually underground.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro
The subway in NYC is used a factor of 672 times per capita than in Amsterdam. People likely use the subway in NYC, London, Paris in a very different manner than they do in Amsterdam, "doncha think"? (Never mind.)
One might gather that the reasons the Amsterdam system isn't bigger is due, in part, to the canals.
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It doesn't seem likely that they would move any where near the same number rides per capita as a large metro subway system would.
It's possible that buses/trams don't change bicycling usage. It's possible that a large metro subway system could.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-08-13 at 07:34 AM.
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https://www.xesc.cat/pashmina/attachm...apita_2030.pdf
That does explain a lot.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-08-13 at 06:37 AM.
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And, don't complain to me about your cultural illiteracy.
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Your argument is so good that you have to resort to ad hominens to make it.
What is it about you that makes you start bullying people when arguments don't go your way?
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-08-13 at 09:16 AM.
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As I have written before, the population that lives or works in the Manhattan Island area of New York City is the most transportationally deprived population in the USA. The area has grown rather larger than is convenient for walking. There is the best mass rail transit system in the USA. But vehicular travel on the streets is greatly impeded by the great crush of cars daily driven in from outside. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that some of these people are taking up cycling, and that more might well in the future. But this does not represent a switch from motoring to cycling. The people who switch were not commuting motorists; they were walkers, bus riders, and some from mass rail.
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those who are tired of supporting brutal petrol-dictatorships.
those who are tired of pollution and environmental destruction.
people like these:
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#493
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Bek, where is your evidence that there ever was any cycling in New Amsterdam?
As I have written before, the population that lives or works in the Manhattan Island area of New York City is the most transportationally deprived population in the USA. The area has grown rather larger than is convenient for walking. There is the best mass rail transit system in the USA. But vehicular travel on the streets is greatly impeded by the great crush of cars daily driven in from outside. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that some of these people are taking up cycling, and that more might well in the future. But this does not represent a switch from motoring to cycling. The people who switch were not commuting motorists; they were walkers, bus riders, and some from mass rail.
As I have written before, the population that lives or works in the Manhattan Island area of New York City is the most transportationally deprived population in the USA. The area has grown rather larger than is convenient for walking. There is the best mass rail transit system in the USA. But vehicular travel on the streets is greatly impeded by the great crush of cars daily driven in from outside. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that some of these people are taking up cycling, and that more might well in the future. But this does not represent a switch from motoring to cycling. The people who switch were not commuting motorists; they were walkers, bus riders, and some from mass rail.
you think you need evidence that there's been cycling in new york city?
obviously you've forgotten your cycling history i see.
cycling trivia -
Q: Who established roving police patrols on bicycles in New York City, long prior to the popularization of the automobile?
A: Teddy Roosevelt, in 1895.
#494
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it's not an argument, it's common knowledge. Just like the common knowledge that there's been bicycles in use in New York City for quite some time.
you really haven't heard kids are driving less?
in the last decade, miles driven by young adults in this country declined by, like, 27 percent.
I'd predict they're pretty low in Holland, and also on the decline.
you really haven't heard kids are driving less?
in the last decade, miles driven by young adults in this country declined by, like, 27 percent.
I'd predict they're pretty low in Holland, and also on the decline.
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and you completely ignored my point. its terribly inconvenient that mode share in holland started increasing prior to most of that infrastructure. mebbe...just mebbe...its not only infrastructure but also societal attitudes towards motoring.
screw "build it and they will come".
my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".
considering that i have been happily living car free/light for more than a decade i don't feel cheated in the least.
in fact, one of my primary criticisms of separated infrastructure is that it seeks co-existance with motorists. i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
screw "build it and they will come".
my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".
considering that i have been happily living car free/light for more than a decade i don't feel cheated in the least.
in fact, one of my primary criticisms of separated infrastructure is that it seeks co-existance with motorists. i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
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I've heard a lot of things, doesn't make it so, even if you believe it or want to believe it.
You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
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You're wrong. The Dutch cycled in hordes (like most Europeans, as well as the Brits) untill the arrival of The Car - or rather, untill the cars more or less took over the cities. As cycling became ever more dangerous because of the cars, cycling decreased. This trend was stopped in the Netherlands (and in Copenhagen) in the early 70's when huge demonstrations of cyclists/environmentalists showed that people had been fed up with the carnage and the destruction of their cities in the name of The-Car-is-Progress. With better bike infrastructure, cycling resurged. That's how it happened. It didn't have anything to do with societal attitudes - or only as far as that the majority supported the bike infrastructure, believing (rightly) that it would save many, many lives. People didn't all of a sudden start cycling again, disregarding the very real dangers.
That's how it happened. People didn't all of a sudden start cycling again...
https://mighkwilson.com/wp-content/up...ng-history.jpg
https://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/re...lan%201999.pdf
in fact, one can make the argument that in denmark cycling began to stagnate during a period of infrastructure build out:
https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...rld.html#graph
...disregarding the very real dangers.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-08-13 at 03:37 PM. Reason: typos
#498
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I've heard a lot of things, doesn't make it so, even if you believe it or want to believe it.
You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
https://theenergycollective.com/james...ll-it-continue
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There's one other difference. Here, we've seen a lot of greul propaganda for helmets. They don't do that in the Netherlands.
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If it's actually "common", it should be easy to provide a reference.
There's no way of evaluating such an incomplete statistic.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-08-13 at 02:17 PM.