Bikey Mikey

The treatment isn't covered by insurance as it is an off label use. But, the pharmacy I use to get it has there own assistance plan and I get it for a very reasonable cost.

Null66

Bummer from a cash perspective. Glad the Rx is able to help.

But Marvelous from a health perspective!

one concern, too low e2 causes all sorts of difficulties, I don't know if clomid can go that far. Other AI's can...

Bikey Mikey

Actually, it's cheaper doing this treatment than paying co-payments on the covered meds--because of the prescription program from the pharmacy chain. If I had to pay full price, it would be significantly more cost.

Broid

Hey dudes, I'm the OP, and this thread has been very helpful, just the kind of data I was looking for!

Myosmith

One of the potential side effects of testosterone therapy is gynocomastia, enlargement of the breasts. Few people realize that testosterone can be converted to estrogen by the aromatase enzyme. All men produce some aromatase but the overproduction of it can reduce testosterone levels and, in the setting of T therapy or T abuse, can reduce the expected effects and increase the side effects as part of the suppemental T is converted to estrogen. That is why some people using elicit testosterone supplementation develop gynocomastia and some don't. It has to do with your aromatase production. Estrogen blockers are an adjunctive therapy for men who want to use testosterone supplements but who overproduce aromatase. This problem is diagnosed by testing both testosterone and estrogen levels following the initial few weeks of therapy. If both the testosterone and estrogen levels rise, there may be an issue. Good luck finding a physician who will prescribe estrogen blockers for men and it is highly unlikely that they will be covered by insurance.

Bikey Mikey

For Chlomiphene(Estrogen blocker), I pay about $25 for 60 days worth(½ tab/day of a 50 mg tab--so thirty 50mg tabs)at the pharmacy using their program. I think full price is near $150 for the same # of pills. I'm not sure it's kosher to name the chain, but if you PM me, I can give you the name.

Chlomiphene is all I take and it doubled my T levels to over 600. No Testosterone pills or gel--just the Chlomiphene.

Leisesturm

Actually I find this thread rather sad. The other one that was linked was just as depressing. So much ignorance. So much fear. If anyone knows of a way to get brand name testosterone supplementation without a doctors presciprtion they should tell us about it. The warnings to the o.p. to get a doctors o.k. are just so alarmist. He isn't getting anywhere past Go without a script. Cant hug your kids? Do you hug them naked? Can't get any near the wife? Not only do I get it near her she occasionally asks me to light her up and I assure you that that is a whole lot more than the minute trace amounts that might possibly remain on your hands hours after applying the stuff. After five or six years of near daily use my nuts are the same size they have always been.

Long term use of T will likely mean addition of an estrogen blocker. The poster who is using estrogen blocker alone to boost T is going to find that in a year or so his estrogen is going to bottom out. He is going to feel just as crappy or worse than someone whose T has bottomed out. The suicide rate of 30 to 60 year olds has doubled in 10 years. The ones knocking themselves off are the ones like you guys in this thread. Your losing your jobs, your wives, your homes and everything else important because you lost your drive. It's not your fault, every man, woman and child in America and elsewhere is smothered in industrial zeno-estrogens, meat and poultry is laced with estrogen. Every man walking has testosterone levels that are half of what his father had at his age.

It's not deadly. Not right away. But go ahead, it absolutely is your right to shrug off the concerns of your doctor, or wife... mistress, and pooh pooh testosterone supplementation. Just don't do it in my hearing. I will corect you. FWIW I don't use Androgel or Testim or any other brand name gel. I use compounded bio-identical testosterone cream. The doctors visits cost more than the cream, and I don't have insurance covering it. I use 1/4 of an estrogen blocker tablet 2x/wk. Viagra is $30 a tablet if you don't have insurance, but does nothing for your stamina, cardiovascular recovery, muscle size and/or tone. Mental clarity, bone density, etc. There is nothing natural or normal about the world we live in. The testosterone levels we over 50 men are living with are nothing like what men lived with before. That argument about not messing with your natural hormone levels is just so much FAIL in this reality of hormone laden foods, and all the xeno-estrogens that are found in household products and plastics. FWIW.

H

sirupate

Big thumbs up on your post Sir. There is so much misinformation out there, but it is a rather complicated topic and requires study if you want to do it right.

Broid

Sheesh. All I did was ask if anyone was using it. I'm just doing research guys, nothing more...

Leisesturm, I'm really not sure what the point of your post is? It sounds like you condemn testosterone supplementation but say you are doing it, what is your point?

FolsomJohn

I was diagnosed with a pituitary tumor in Oct. 2013 and have since had it surgically removed and have gone through radiation treatments to prevent its reoccurrence. My endocrinologist has put me on testosterone supplements because my T level was low due to the tumor. My Dr. originally prescribed the use of a gel supplement but my insurance declined to cover any of them so I'm stuck (pun intended) with using an injected supplement. I must say that after my 1st injection I feel better than I have in months and I am finally feeling good enough to get back to bike riding. Since I was never on any of the gel supplements I cannot compare them to the injection in regards to how they make me feel but one thing I can say is that my wallet will be much happier. Gels are very expensive around $400 compared to $70 for the equivalent amount of serum (these are rough figures so don't beat me up if they are a bit off, the point being is that gels are way more expensive than serum). Since I have no idea how long my T level has been low I am very curious how my riding performance will compare. Oh yeah I am 55 years old.

Null66

Uhm, "stuck" is actually FAR FAR FAR better. Topical has a Much much to high conversion rate to E2. As Leisesturm pointed out: Estrogen is a major issue. Too much and well, life sucks, and you die early. Too little, life sucks even more, even sucks the bones right out of you, and you die even earlier.

I don't know if clomid is a strong enough AI to cause too low a level at the dose the poster is using.

My E2 is down, with injections, even compared to pre-supplement levels. Due mostly to fat loss... But also diet.

As a marvelous irony: the most of the things (food, drink) our culture decides is MANLY, drives T down and estrogen up...

Leisesturm

My point is that a lot of men condem supplementation without really knowing anything about it. It sounds scary to do and so they avoid doing it. Most of the men with prostate cancer didn't go anywhere near a tube of Androgel! There is more evidence that too high Estrogen is what causes prostate cancer than normal levels of testosterone acheived through supplementation. If you have a prostate tumor, then, no, Androgel isn't the best thing you could take. But...if you have a prostate tumor then nuts aren't the best things to have either. Six of one...

I think my post was pretty clear. Just to make sure I had my wife read it. She got me. A pretty low bar for deciding things I know but... maybe you should re-read my post just to see if you don't come away with a different POV. FWIW.

H

Leisesturm

The first doctor I went to favored injections. After a year of that I went to a second doctor that said that bi-weekly injections was insanity and put me on the compounded cream that I use to this day. I never really acheived all those glowing superlatives that were supposed to be results of T replacement therapy. On my own I decided to test E2. I was 12 on a test where 2 is high. That was mostly from injections since I hadn't been on the cream that long by this. Aromatization occurs in the liver. It doens't matter whether you inject of apply cream, the first pass throught the liver is going to happen. You cannot prevent it. Some men can take a lot of T and not have it all turn to E. I take only a little T and my E goes way up. I use Arimidex to lower E2. They are so powerful and work so fast that I was too low before I knew it and was just making things worse by taking 1/2 pills EOD. Eventually I tested E2 again and discovered this. To say that doctors are mostly clueless about this stuff is an understatement. Google is your lifeline. My doctor really functions as a legal front door through which I can acquire the therapies I need. I drive the research and direction of the ongoing adventure that is finding an optimum level of vitality and vigor in later mid-life.

H

moth54

I hope you will find it reassuring that hormones have not been allowed in poultry production for more than 50 years.

Source: Mississippi State University Extension Service
https://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2767.pdf

The article goes on to explain that growth implants are used in beef cattle, but NOT in poultry, dairy cattle, veal calves, or pigs.

That said, it is true that steroid hormones can also come from plants - you may have heard of soy derived estrogen. You can easily control this by eating fewer soy products if it is a concern.

Regarding the 1992 paper by Carlsen et al on the possibility that worldwide sperm counts are falling due to estrogen exposure, Handelsman reported in the journal "Reproduction, Fertility and Development" 2001;13(4):317-24 a review of that earlier research. The paper begins: "Extravagant claims have been made repeatedly in recent years that human sperm counts are falling and that global exposure to environmental estrogens are responsible....

It concludes: " If population-based evidence regarding male fertility or sperm output could be generated, it is highly unlikely that prenatal estrogen exposure could be a valid explanation of any deterioration as massive maternal exposure to oral estrogen has negligible effects on male fertility or sperm output..."

Regarding your worry that "every man walking has testosterone levels that are half of what his father had at his age" - I don't think there exists a database of testosterone levels from men of previous generations of age 50 plus to compare with today's men. Many things would complicate such a comparison, from the quality and sensitivity of early testosterone level testing, to the size of samples studied, to the longevity of earlier generations of men versus today.

Regarding evil estrogen: as those familiar with the history of the development of oral contraceptives will know, the population that has experienced the most damage due to estrogen has not been men but women. Early oral contraceptives contained doses far higher than subsequent generations of the pill - and those high doses were implicated in the serious side effects suffered by young women in the 1960s who were the first to go on the pill. These side effects have been greatly reduced through the use of lower dose pills.

This is not to say that your concerns are entirely misplaced, only that you are apt to indict estrogen and exonerate testosterone. Both have a wide variety of pharmacologic actions and in particular, men considering testosterone therapy should consider that paradoxically, one of the reported side effects of testosterone gel is decreased (yes, decreased) sexual desire. Yes I realize that men undergoing such therapy are seeking not 'kicks' but a better quality of life. I mention this only to emphasize that therapy of this type has highly variable results that aren't always what one might predict. So we must draw our conclusions with great care.

The pill (oral contraceptives) has been researched for over 50 years and it is still a complex area of study. Studies of HRT in women are also ongoing.Testosterone therapy I doubt will be any different. Moral of story: be prepared for many, many revisions to the data and associated conclusions. And be grateful that despite all, today's men are living longer and healthier lives than those of generations past. Corpses have very low testosterone.

Null66

Your experience is very interesting. It is marvelous to hear that you were able to find a Dr. that listened to you and research. It is refreshing to see a Dr. willing to be a partner in health instead of an authority... From all the stories and research I've done, seems like people are individuals with individual characteristics...


Might I ask how old you are? And what your body composition is like? Does your fat cluster around your mid section or evenly distributed? How long before you realized you were low on E?

Aromatization occurs in liver AND fat. The higher the spike the higher the aromatization. Hence 2 week protocols suck. Some Doc's do monthly. Must be one hell of a roller coaster!

I was on compounded (5%) and it was ~ $30 month and light years better then Androgel. Eventually, I stopped absorbing that as well.

2 week injections do suck. I self administer 2x weekly, sub q, not IM. Sub Q offers a slower release, lower spike and therefore lower amoratization. But for me, the best part is I'm much less likely to hit a gusher. I inject in the quads and would hit a blood vessel about every 4th time. OBTW, I'm almost 48, 6', 265 about 20% body fat.

Others I know do lower dose every other day.

Null66

Uh, not really.
They use massive doses of antibiotics, far far more then for infection control, to the same effects.

Leisesturm

Might I ask how old you are? And what your body composition is like? Does your fat cluster around your mid section or evenly distributed? How long before you realized you were low on E?

Almost 55y.o. Don't have a lot of extra fat but what there is definitely likes my midsection. It always takes me a long time to realize I am low on E. I am slowly learning the warning signs. I am going to try and find a link that explained things very well. I'll DM you if I get it.

I was on compounded (5%) and it was ~ $30 month and light years better then Androgel. Eventually, I stopped absorbing that as well.

I don't know that there is such a thing as "not absorbing it". What makes you think this? I believe there may be such a thing as an intrinsic "set point" for various hormones for people. My setpoint for T is very low. I can raise it only with difficulty and my levels even with supplementation are just so-so. Light years better, however, than when I was stuck at the absolute bottom of the scale.

2 week injections do suck. I self administer 2x weekly, sub q, not IM. Sub Q offers a slower release, lower spike and therefore lower amoratization. But for me, the best part is I'm much less likely to hit a gusher. I inject in the quads and would hit a blood vessel about every 4th time. OBTW, I'm almost 48, 6', 265 about 20% body fat.

20% cream, $160. I can make it last 6 months if I am conservative or 3 if I am a pig. Arimidex, free with patient assistance plan from the manufacturer, otherwise ~$10 per tab. Meant to be taken 1 tab/dy - 90 tablets 1/4 tab 2x/wk -- you do the math.

H

Bob S

"I was diagnosed with a pituitary tumor in Oct. 2013 and have since had it surgically removed and have gone through radiation treatments to prevent its re-occurrence. My endocrinologist has put me on testosterone supplements because my T level was low due to the tumor."

Is your diagnosis Panhypopituitarism? That has been my diagnosis since mid 2011, the first clue was my T tested at 13. I now use the max daily dose, 4 pumps, of Axiron and feel a hell of a lot better. Sure you have to be careful for 2 hours following application not to let women or children come in contact with the application site, underarms, I do not find this to be an issue. Before I was diagnosed I was down to riding 4-5 miles on the flat maybe twice a week if I had the energy, now that I have been able to regain some muscle I ride as much as I want.

I am disgusted with all the advertising for T and other pharma products creating demand where it is not needed. However if you have a medically diagnosed need then use the appropriate product. Most doctors do not have enough experience to recommend a course of action even after reviewing your test results. If the test results are low then see an endocrinologist who has significant recent experience with low T, many of them specialize in Diabetes and are not much better than your family doctor. There are other hormones like Thyroid that cause low energy and again an Endocrinologists is best person to evaluate this and other hormone deficiencies.

I am 68 and use 4 hormones daily due to the my Pituitary gland not functioning. I feel what I think is normal compared to before my diagnosis....

billydonn

AGREE WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE
I got tested a couple years ago at my normal physical exam.

Now you will pry my Fortesta from my cold dead hands. Freakin fountain of youth for me at 66. My mojo works much better now. I have taken to going one day a week without it and a half dose on the ramping up and down days to give my natural boys a signal to keep trying. If you have any prostate issues they may not give it to you. I on the other hand have the "prostate of a 30 year old" and am very proud of that.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...dvice-on-Low-T

VNA

Trauma to the pituitary from a bad concussion!

JohnBee

Very true. To argue that we're living with natural hormone levels is silly. We ahave a rediculously different environment than our ancestors.

The Massachusetts Male Aging study even showed generational decline in serum-testosterone. E.g. a 50-year-old in 1987 has higher serum testosterone than a 50-year-old in 2004. That's controlling for all sorts of other factors like smoking, weight, and activity levels. See:

Massachusetts Male Aging Study

20% cream is too strong, you won't absorb it so well generally. That's why most commercial creams are 1-5%, including AndroPlus.

TiHabanero

Interesting thread. Had a conversation with a friend of mine who is studying the long term affects of testosterone supplementation in males. They are looking at the kidneys right now. He indicated treatment may be harsh on the kidneys as early indicators are showing. No, nothing published as the study is ongoing.

David Bierbaum

The lawyers are already running ads to gather enough people for class-action suit status, of the "have you taken testosterone replacement therapy and suffered a stroke or heart attack? Call us right now!" style.

As for studies, I no longer really trust any of them, till I know who funded/backed the study, the methodology of the study, and the publication standards of the publisher of the study.

Weatherby

I often wish for an estrogen blocker

Null66

Same here.

There's an AI (amoratase inhibitor) available not intended for human use lab chemical. A number of lifters use that...

That's why I went to 2x weekly shot and sun-q at that. Much less conversion.