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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 05-23-14, 05:51 AM   #5126
revchuck
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I did my power test Wednesday morning before work. Since my coach is part of Carmichael Training Systems (CTS), I did the CTS field test of two eight minute TTs separated by an easy spin from the end back to the start point. The first one pretty well; I almost matched the output of the last one I had done. The second one was pretty ugly; the power was down 11% from the first one while the HR was down four bpm, and it felt like the proverbial "pedaling through wet concrete." My coach noted that buffering capacity and top end are the first things to go. My FTP was adjusted downward six watts. It's better than I expected after a six week layoff.

Did the team ride last night in lieu of a solo ride this morning. I had a couple of goals - I wanted to see how I'd feel in a group, and I wanted to see how I felt at speed. I was surprised that I felt comfortable with both, almost like I hadn't been away. I stayed with them for about five minutes once the speed hit the mid-20s and then pulled off and completed the ride at endurance pace. It was good to be back.

I've been working at the LBS pretty steadily. I've been a cube rat for most of my recent career, and I was surprised to re-discover how much standing on my feet all day tires me.
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Old 05-23-14, 08:10 AM   #5127
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The other thing I like about OOP is that it is always a conversation piece and I get a lot of questions from cyclists that generates discussion.
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seek out the tandems to tow them around because of the draft they provide and the high (he said "insane") speeds they generate on the flats and on the descents
Heck yes. I was in a fast paceline on Cape Cod last year and we heard the last thing we expected: "on your left!" Two guys in matching kit blew past us on a tandem. We were probably doing 25 but it was like getting passed by a freight train. We never had a chance to latch on.
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Old 05-23-14, 10:43 AM   #5128
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I did my power test Wednesday morning before work. Since my coach is part of Carmichael Training Systems (CTS), I did the CTS field test of two eight minute TTs separated by an easy spin from the end back to the start point. The first one pretty well; I almost matched the output of the last one I had done. The second one was pretty ugly; the power was down 11% from the first one while the HR was down four bpm, and it felt like the proverbial "pedaling through wet concrete." My coach noted that buffering capacity and top end are the first things to go. My FTP was adjusted downward six watts. It's better than I expected after a six week layoff.

Did the team ride last night in lieu of a solo ride this morning. I had a couple of goals - I wanted to see how I'd feel in a group, and I wanted to see how I felt at speed. I was surprised that I felt comfortable with both, almost like I hadn't been away. I stayed with them for about five minutes once the speed hit the mid-20s and then pulled off and completed the ride at endurance pace. It was good to be back.

I've been working at the LBS pretty steadily. I've been a cube rat for most of my recent career, and I was surprised to re-discover how much standing on my feet all day tires me.
Chuck, that is a great test result considering not just a layoff but a serious injury requiring surgery plus time off the bike. That should make you feel really good.

I looked over my data from Sunday's group ride on Cycling Analytics. If I pick out two segments that meet your CTS protocol criteria, I would raise my FTP by 20 watts and maybe event 25 watts depending on how one wants to interpret the rest period. I only got 2 1/2 minutes of rest between segments.

However, I have done 40K individual time trials and holding power for one hour, for me, is unbelievably hard. I doubt that I could take my current FTP, add 25 watts to it and hold it for one hour. I would have to train long duration intervals at or around FTP to get good at actually doing FTP for long periods of time in a race setting. Frankly speaking, I am suspect of protocols that estimate FTP by doing a shortened test and then applying a discount factor or maybe all FTPs and not created equal. However, I suspect the key is being consistent in the test protocol and does it work for the athlete.
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Old 05-23-14, 10:57 AM   #5129
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Hermes, I know, that for me, holding my FTP for anything longer than the 20 minutes it took to define it is very problematic. And, increasing an average by 10 watts is huge, even 2 or 3 watts is a giant effort.

Chuck, well done. Welcome back to the saddle!!
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Old 05-23-14, 11:20 AM   #5130
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Yesterday
5K ru**i*g
'spirited' group 33 mile ride last night. IF 0.98; TSS 129; NP = FTP setting.

Recovery 5 mi ru* this morning.
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Old 05-23-14, 10:00 PM   #5131
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nice job, revchuck! first one back is the hardest. now you have a new benchmark!
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Old 05-23-14, 10:56 PM   #5132
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FTP is an overrated metric and assumes a standard power curve. It's more like looking for house when you start with the city you want to live in. A lot to figure out after that.
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Old 05-24-14, 05:25 AM   #5133
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Did the team ride last night in lieu of a solo ride this morning. I had a couple of goals - I wanted to see how I'd feel in a group, and I wanted to see how I felt at speed. I was surprised that I felt comfortable with both, almost like I hadn't been away. I stayed with them for about five minutes once the speed hit the mid-20s and then pulled off and completed the ride at endurance pace. It was good to be back.
I bet it is. Nice work!

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If I pick out two segments that meet your CTS protocol criteria, I would raise my FTP by 20 watts and maybe event 25 watts depending on how one wants to interpret the rest period. I only got 2 1/2 minutes of rest between segments.
How does the CTS calculate FTP from 8 minute tests? Similar to the Hunter Allen 95% 20 minute power? If it is; have you taken the percentage if one into account?
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Old 05-24-14, 10:37 AM   #5134
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Dalai - You do two, eight minute TTs and the higher heart rate and power averages of the two are used to calculate FTP and HR. I believe they use 90% of the power; don't know how they calculate FTHR.
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Old 05-24-14, 12:22 PM   #5135
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I took 90% of the average of the 2 segments I looked at. If I take 95% of the normalized power for a 48 minute segment of the same ride that contains those segments, I get approximately the same answer. However, the ride had fast descents that were rest periods where I was making no power.
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Old 05-24-14, 06:37 PM   #5136
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Did a ride with the local B group this morning. The first half was pretty slow - ~17 mph in a paceline. About 2/3 of the way through the ride I did a 30 minute interval at low Z4 (94% of the new FTP); I could definitely feel it, but it was no problem. 2:22, 152 TSS, .80 IF.
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Old 05-24-14, 07:50 PM   #5137
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FTP is an overrated metric ...
agree. it's useful to repeat a similar effort periodically to gauge progress (becomes especially useful during rehab), but something like FTP is not always a good predictor of race performance. in fact, it is often a poor predictor.
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Old 05-24-14, 07:55 PM   #5138
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Unless the crit lines out or the road race tips up for a few miles. Then it can be a pretty good predictor.
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Old 05-25-14, 09:31 PM   #5139
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My coach trains / coaches two UCI pros and one of them was in the Giro as Team Sky's GC. He crashed twice in the early stages due to wet roads and was in 18th place going into stage 14 expecting to move up in the standings as they are now in the mountains. Out of a roundabout on stage 14, a racer goes down in front of him, 100 Km out and he and two other Sky racers crash. He is out of the Giro. The report is no broken bones but too much pain to continue. Assuming he is okay, he is slated for the Tour. I am really glad I became an engineer and do this stuff for fun.
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Old 05-25-14, 09:34 PM   #5140
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My coach trains / coaches two UCI pros and one of them was in the Giro as Team Sky's GC.
interesting. i figured sky would be incredibly particular about the coaching of their riders and they might keep it in-house, so to speak.
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Old 05-25-14, 09:41 PM   #5141
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did a 4h ride today, exactly 4 weeks post-femur break (3.5 since repair).

burned 1500kJ over a few hours then did a local 5.5-mile, 8% climb. i figured i'd head up it at sweet-spot and that started out fine, but power faded and faded as time wore on. 40' later and it was all i could do to top out. my HR was pegged...averaged nearly 180 for the 40' and hit 187.

coincidentally i did the exact same ride exactly one year ago -- doing the same climb after burning 1500kJ. that day, i rode up 30w higher but 16bpm lower, and i was holding back to stay with a friend. that same friend (a trainee) passed me at the top today. was psyched for him, as he was riding well within himself.

it was surprisingly warm today....90F in the sun at the top, and i think i was a little dehydrated.

sometimes riding i feel like i'm not injured, but today's effort was a reminder that i've come far but still have a long way to go. can't fake long efforts. this will be a great data point when i repeat the climb over the coming weeks/months.
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Old 05-25-14, 10:01 PM   #5142
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interesting. i figured sky would be incredibly particular about the coaching of their riders and they might keep it in-house, so to speak.
Most of professional athlete's training and tactics are confidential so I do not know very much. My speculation is that Sky provides general guidelines and it is up to the individual athletes to interpret and use the guidelines as appropriate. IMO, pro cyclists use a variety of advisors depending on who it is and how much they trust their advice and what advice they are seeking. My coach ran the Belarus National Team for 10 years and knows a lot about high level pro cycling and grand tours. Among Belarusian pro / olympic / world cup cyclists, he is very well known and respected.
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Old 05-25-14, 10:11 PM   #5143
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2:21 minute group / endurance ride along the coast. This was the exact same ride as I did last Sunday. My results were approximately the same. One difference was that we had amazing weather with bright sunshine and temps in the mid 60s. We had the classic tale wind out and head wind back.

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Old 05-26-14, 04:43 AM   #5144
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We had the classic tale wind out and head wind back.
So you were telling stories and, ah, shooting the breeze?
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Old 05-26-14, 04:58 AM   #5145
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2:05 at endurance pace yesterday with a 3x10' threshold interval set. The first two went well, the third one took some concentration and I ended up about five bpm higher than the first two. Recovery afterwards took longer than usual too. TSS 132, IF .79.

My coach is pleased with my re-start. It seems that my power hasn't taken that much of a hit, but endurance and repeatability have.
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Old 05-26-14, 06:57 PM   #5146
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Sunday - Rode to watch a crit then did some 10 min FTP hill repeats followed by some other hills and base miles; 6hr 25 min, 100 mi / 10,430' gain. IF 0.98 TSS 464

Monday - 5:40 Social ride 92 mi / 6,100' gain. IF 0.81 TSS 313

Tomorrow is an off day.
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Old 05-26-14, 08:45 PM   #5147
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Tomorrow would be a "collapse day" for me.
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Old 05-27-14, 03:30 AM   #5148
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Tomorrow would be a "collapse day" for me.
Exactly what I was thinking. A week's worth of TSS in two days. Although 6:25 at .98 IF...methinks IBO be sandbagging.
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Old 05-27-14, 11:22 AM   #5149
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Tomorrow would be a "collapse day" for me.
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Exactly what I was thinking. A week's worth of TSS in two days. Although 6:25 at .98 IF...methinks IBO be sandbagging.
The times posted are moving times. For the 'watched a crit race' deal I rode 25 mile or so there, which included a 20 min effort. Watched a race then off to do some repeats. Returned back to watch another race then off on my own.

Mayhaps I need to do a *real* FTP test? I can only use what I see in GC and Garmin and based on a 20 min power of 283/284 * .95 that comes out to 269W.
I even put my Garmin FTP setting at 273

Anybody wants to provide input as to where I'm going wrong I'm open to any and all comments and or criticism I would love to get better at this.

Ask for data and if I have it I'll gladly provide it.

Weaverton; 20 min = 283
Bike Ride Profile | Weaverton near Keedysville | Times and Records | Strava



Ft. Ritchey; 20 min = 284. This was a 21 min effort that is part of a duathlon course. It has the (8) 10 min repeats I did.

Bike Ride Profile | Watch a Crit then do repeats and some base miles. near Keedysville | Times and Records | Strava

Bike Ride Profile | Watch a Crit then do repeats and some base miles. near Keedysville | Times and Records | Strava



Hagerstonw ride; In a group that seemed to want to stop every 15 minutes . Had two folks bail with 20 to go
Bike Ride Profile | /Shippensburg near Hagerstown | Times and Records | Strava



And from the last 7 days in GC

Attached Images
File Type: jpg weaverton.jpg (38.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg FtRitchey.jpg (41.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg htown.jpg (21.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg GC.jpg (50.8 KB, 5 views)
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Old 05-27-14, 11:44 AM   #5150
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IBO, which power meter do you have on your road bike?
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