rpenmanparker 

What difference would it make if you knew? It is the frame as a whole that is important, not what it is made of. All steel feels the same when made into the same dimension/specification tubes. It is what Ritchey does with the material that is so important, the design of the tube gauges and butts, not what he starts with. Of course a minimum level of strength is required, but that isn't such a problem to achieve. And ability to retain strength at the welds or to regain strength by after welding treatments is valuable. My own take is that it is quite mundane, probably just 4130 CrMo to start, worked and butted to get the most possible performance out of it. Maybe heat treated after welding. <Shrug>

jamesdak 

10 years, there has to be some law against that!!!!

A tad over 25 miles this evening on this. With temps below freezing.




Show the steel some love!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JohnJ80

I agree that it is the design interacting with the material that makes the ride. What I would add is that steel is the easiest to assemble with the widest selection of available tubes which makes that process much easier. If you are working with a frame builder, that can make it more straightforward to get the ride you want. But yes, the material is not the limiting factor. In point of fact, you can make an awful riding frame with any of the materials too.

J.

Campag4life

How bout a pic of your custom bike?

rpenmanparker 

Here is what I don't understand. Take a look at post #2 in this BF thread:https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuild...ity-stuff.html

Look at the chart of available Reynolds 725 tubes. Now 725 is essentially the same as the much-ballyhooed 753 of yesteryear, heat treated basic tubing that ends up with about a 1/3 increase in strength compared to the starting CrMo tubing it is made from. The difference is that 725 starts with 525 CrMo whereas 753 started with 531 MnMo tubing. But very much the same result.

Notice that the array of tubes that are offered are essentially the same as what has always been available in 525 and 531 tubes, i.e. no especially thin, light tubes. Where are the really thin tubes? The 0.8/0.5/0.8 tubes were always available in plain 531 (and Columbus as well) as the SL version, so that is no big weight improvement. Only one or two tubes out of a long list for each type is thinner than normal like 0.7/0.4/0.7.

Why go to the trouble of increasing the strength over CrMo if you aren't going to make lighter tubes out of the improved material? The two steel versions in the same tube specification will ride exactly the same, so what is the point of the higher strength steel. I am pretty sure if you had a similar chart for 831, you would see much the same thing. I know I have seen catalogs from tube suppliers that bear out that fact for 831.

My point is this. All the folks riding 831 and going on and on about how magical it is might be a victim of the emperor's new clothes syndrome. Unless they know for sure they are riding especially specified light gauge tubes, it is highly likely their bikes aren't any different than if they were made from 531C or 531SL tubes. Big whoop.

And even if the lighter tubes are used in a bike, why are so many more standard tubes offered than the lighter ones. If you don't need the extra strength, shouldn't you just use 525 for a standard tube and save the money?

Funny thing is, I would love to be wrong about this, but I can't figure out how that would be the case. Anyone?

a77impala

I have owned many steel framed bikes but the bike that makes me feel I could live with just one bike is my titanium LeMond.

dr_lha

Robert

Maybe I'm missing your point here, but that 725 data sheet you linked to listed 0.7/0.4/0.7 tubing.

rpenmanparker 

No, you're right. I know that seems a little contradictory. But the high strength steel is all about lighter gauge tubes, yet so few variations are offered. The list is overwhelmingly heavier stuff. Why bother with the standard gauge offerings when they could just as well be 525?

JohnJ80

Sure. Here you go. Now has Enve wheels. Frame by Anderson Custom Bicycles.

Jarrett2

I feel like it is pretty simple. Steel bicycle frames are a fairly known quantity at this point in time. And while I appreciate and have learned from the majority of your posts, I feel like you enjoy adding complexity to a topic where it might not otherwise exist.

It doesn't really matter if I knew what steel Ritchey uses, its just a running joke about the mystery metal. You have to assume he is not choosing a tubeset with name recognition, otherwise he would use that in marketing. But clearly whatever he uses (possibly an in-house blend offered by the Taiwanese plant where the bikes are made) results in a satisfying frame.

But I disagree that it does matter what he starts with. If it didn't matter everyone would start with 4130 for a frame and that's obviously not the case. Of course you can argue that a frame builder might choose a certain tubeset and do dumb things with it, but in reality, that's not what happens. These knowledgeable, experienced builders take a new tubeset and make a better bike with it. If they could save the money and start with the cheapest steel and magically make a bike that was equivalent to what their competitors made with more expensive steel, they would do it. But they don't, most likely because they can't. They source the steel that makes the most sense for the goal they are shooting for and in the upper end of the steel market that typically ends up being Reynolds 853, 953, True Temper OX Platinum, S3, etc.

Companies targeting lower price points (and heavier bikes) use 4130/Reynolds 520. Some companies like Jamis even offer a Reynolds 631 model, but discontinued their next step up Reynolds 853 model presumably because people weren't willing to pay the higher price that was required to build a higher quality steel Jamis bike.

Jarrett2

That's a nice bike. If I ever build another steel bike, they will be on my short list for a call.

rpenmanparker 

I hear ya. Look at my post about what tubes are offered in what steels. Since the steel isn't what affects the feel, why are the advanced steels being offered in the heavier gauges when 4130 would indeed work exactly as well for those gauges like 0.9/0.6/0.9. It does say that something else is going on. Selling the name is my guess. As for Ritchey, it is because he isn't selling the name that I think he isn't using anything more expensive than he has to in order to get the end result he wants.

JohnJ80

Thanks. I'm pretty over the top about it after a whole season riding it. Fit is perfect, compliance is just right in all the right places. I can ride the thing all day and be ready for me when I stop. Weight sans pedals is 16.5 or so.

My other bike - my adventure bike - is the Gunnar Crosshairs. Looking at yours makes me wish I had gotten the sport or a roadie with it's lighter tube set. I just wanted rack dropouts and the ability to take a wider tire, could be used for non paved trails and for light touring. The Crosshairs can do that but it's not it's sweet spot and it's built heavier than I need.

J

JohnJ80

That or he has used specific tubes from several different suppliers to get the optimal tube for each spot in the frame. That would be something Ritchey would do. It's also what my frame builder did so there is no sticker on the frame for a specific steel because he used at least two different kinds but the best tubes from each.

J.

Bah Humbug

I can't believe this thread is still a thing.

rpenmanparker 

It is fairly well known (believed?) that Ritchey does not select tubes from existing tube sets, but rather has each tube custom drawn to his specification. The question is what steel does he use for that? Are any of the tubes so light gauge that he needs a steel that is stronger than 4130 to give the required tube strength? Or is he using 4130 throughout and heat treating to get the increased strength. Does he mix materials and use cheaper steel in his thicker tubes and more expensive steel in his thinner tubes? Those are the significant questions I think.

Jarrett2

Thought we'd all have switched to carbon fiber by now?

Jarrett2

Based on how light and durable his framesets come out to be, I would assume he uses some decent quality steel. If his frames were coming out at 4-5 lbs, then I'd guess he was using all 4130. But from what I've deduced reading build weights, it appears his frames come out weighing similar to a standard OX Platinum tube set built frame. So I'd guess he has found a Taiwanese supplier to create or have created for him something along those lines. Kinda like Fairdale has done with the Drawnright stuff:

We Hold A Torch For Chromoly | Fairdale Bikes

Apparently the Taiwanese company they use to make their bikes approached them and said that they could make any custom steel they wanted in case that was of interest to them. I guess it was and they designed the Goodship using that custom steel.

rpenmanparker 

Well, you're right about that. Since he comes in just under 4 lb, he is saving weight somewhere. It could be he is just using 4130 and heat treating the finished frames, though. That would give him all the strength he would need to get that light. I wonder how hard it is to keep the frames from warping when you do that. It is just another possibility, that's all. I truly have no idea what is really going on.

Bah Humbug

Or at least stopped talking about it all. What's left to be said? I could replace this entire thread with a very small shell script.

Jarrett2

Sweet, do it. Let's check it out.

Bah Humbug

That's really more a figure of speech. I'm actually a Java/ Selenium type of guy.

Jarrett2

I know. I'm just F'ing with you because you're F'ing with us

dr_lha

Here's what I know about Ritchey Logic II tubing, which is used on the Road Logic amongst others. It's a triple butted, heat treated Cromoly tubing. It's made in Taiwan (not Tange as many often state, as they used to partner with Ritchey). It's custom tubing made to Ritchey specs rather than off the shelf tubing.

People forget that Ritchey branded tubing has been around for years. My old Specialized bike has "Ritchey Nitanuim" tubing on it. Tom Ritchey knows a lot about frame making and tubing.

Also, the most important thing: it makes a great, light steel frame. People get way too hung up on the provenance of it.

rpenmanparker 

At the frame weights be produces heat treated chromoly whole frames makes sense, but who knows?