Eggs, protein, muscle and speed...
08-17-15, 02:45 PM
#51
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And yeah, gluten is completely fine. Not only was there a recent study confirming that low/no-gluten diets are no better for athletes, but several other recent studies have shown that if you don't have a legitimate disease like celiac disease, you don't have a "gluten sensitivity".
08-17-15, 02:50 PM
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I can't find the one that I read a few years ago, but I did find some that show similar, and, in some cases, worse outcomes. (I'm simplifying the titles below.)
Fructose causes Hypertension
Fructose causes Diabetes
Fructose causes Obesity
The combination of studies out there show that Fructose can do bad things, so High-Fructose is even worse.
And I agree that cutting out gluten will not help most people other than the fact that it will probably lower the amount of carbs that those people are eating. There is a small percentage of society that has gluten intolerance, and it obviously helps them. And gluten-free products have, literally, been a life saver for a friend of mine who has a very serious allergic (we're talking anaphylactic) to wheat products.
GH
Fructose causes Hypertension
Fructose causes Diabetes
Fructose causes Obesity
The combination of studies out there show that Fructose can do bad things, so High-Fructose is even worse.
And I agree that cutting out gluten will not help most people other than the fact that it will probably lower the amount of carbs that those people are eating. There is a small percentage of society that has gluten intolerance, and it obviously helps them. And gluten-free products have, literally, been a life saver for a friend of mine who has a very serious allergic (we're talking anaphylactic) to wheat products.
GH
Article 2: I'll look at this shortly because I really should be working, but hey.
Article 3: The rats ate two thirds of their calories for two weeks as pure fructose. I'm not sure that it's valid to extend these results to anything resembling a normal human diet.
EDIT: re: article 2: cf. response to article 3.
Last edited by arben; 08-17-15 at 03:19 PM.
08-17-15, 03:09 PM
#53
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My wife is a serious tri-athlete and had several surgeries the past year. She was looking to get back to competitive shape and has been on the Ketogenic diet for 3-4 months with great results. She has dropped about 15-20 lbs and her cholesterol is down. I am a less serious athlete and am doing a less serious form of her diet. Keto is essentially a high fat, super low carb diet. She tries to keep her net carbs below 25 grams and her protein below 90. I am trying to keep my carbs below 85 and protein below 125 - so a bit more moderate - which is more realistic with three kids..
Ketogenic diets are very interesting - with the overall concept being that an athlete functions better in fat burning mode than in carb burning mode - as your body can store tens of thousands of calories of fat energy easily - so no bonking during the 7th hour of her Ironmans. Your body is not dependent on a steady sugar stream. Another concept of it for us non-competitive types - is that the reduction of grains and sugar dramatically lowers inflammation in your body and evens out your blood sugar/insulin. If you buy into the evils of gluten - there are more potential benefits there. Supposedly inflammation/sugar is what drives up cholesterol in the blood and a high fat, super low carb diet will reduce cholesterol - as it simply passes through your system and does stick to artery walls without inflammation.
It is a bit hard to retrain your mind, after growing up with the food pyramid and thinking fat is bad. It sounds a little tin foil hat - but the USA has a "system" in place where we heavily subsidize the wrong things (corn and wheat) - and therefore big food (and their lobby) is heavily invested in pushing a diet with lots of grain/corn syrup - which cause diabetes, heart disease, etc...... - which allows big pharmaceutical companies to profit.
The American Dietetic Association - which is very powerful in setting the nations food research agenda - is funded by companies such as Coca Cola, Kraft, Kellogg, ConAgra, Mosanto, Nestle, Nabisco, etc...... companies very much vested in carbohydrates.
Ketogenic diets are very interesting - with the overall concept being that an athlete functions better in fat burning mode than in carb burning mode - as your body can store tens of thousands of calories of fat energy easily - so no bonking during the 7th hour of her Ironmans. Your body is not dependent on a steady sugar stream. Another concept of it for us non-competitive types - is that the reduction of grains and sugar dramatically lowers inflammation in your body and evens out your blood sugar/insulin. If you buy into the evils of gluten - there are more potential benefits there. Supposedly inflammation/sugar is what drives up cholesterol in the blood and a high fat, super low carb diet will reduce cholesterol - as it simply passes through your system and does stick to artery walls without inflammation.
It is a bit hard to retrain your mind, after growing up with the food pyramid and thinking fat is bad. It sounds a little tin foil hat - but the USA has a "system" in place where we heavily subsidize the wrong things (corn and wheat) - and therefore big food (and their lobby) is heavily invested in pushing a diet with lots of grain/corn syrup - which cause diabetes, heart disease, etc...... - which allows big pharmaceutical companies to profit.
The American Dietetic Association - which is very powerful in setting the nations food research agenda - is funded by companies such as Coca Cola, Kraft, Kellogg, ConAgra, Mosanto, Nestle, Nabisco, etc...... companies very much vested in carbohydrates.
08-17-15, 03:17 PM
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This is only true for endurance athletes operating below the lactate threshold. If you are racing or doing group rides where intensities ramp up constantly you HAVE to have carbs to produce enough glycogen to keep up. Even the best athletes on keto adapted metabolisms can only push their CHO/fat burning ratios up to ~70/30 when operating at threshold.
08-17-15, 03:19 PM
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This is only true for endurance athletes operating below the lactate threshold. If you are racing or doing group rides where intensities ramp up constantly you HAVE to have carbs to produce enough glycogen to keep up. Even the best athletes on keto adapted metabolisms can only push their CHO/fat burning ratios up to ~70/30 when operating at threshold.
Bill
08-17-15, 03:22 PM
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I've never quite got the obsession with corn fructose as bad when just about all natural fruits have it as their primary sugar type.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the difference is you don't drink them out of a can.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the difference is you don't drink them out of a can.
Last edited by TGT1; 08-17-15 at 06:03 PM.
08-17-15, 03:27 PM
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Well the interesting thing is, some folks apparently are quite successful being "dual fuel", they can train their body to run on fat, but then add in SOME carbs for a big event, but stay ketogenic overall. As long as there is no excess of carbs, they remain a fat burning organism.
Bill
Bill
08-17-15, 03:29 PM
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I eat a lot of eggs because I raise chickens. Since starting to raise chickens (and eat lots of eggs) that is my main protein source. At age 35 i have more and leaner muscle than i ever have, and I was a college soccer player. My diet is comprised of mainly farm things, and eggs are my main protein. if you buy real eggs from real farmers, they are even more healthy than store bought omega whatever eggs, and duck eggs are better yet. my chickens eat better than some humans, as I collect food scraps from the hospital cafeteria and many area restaurants to feed my flock. this varied diet transfers to egg quality and health.
I also usually cook veggies in rendered organic pork fat from a local farmer. more good clean nutrition that has a worse reputation than it ever should.
I also usually cook veggies in rendered organic pork fat from a local farmer. more good clean nutrition that has a worse reputation than it ever should.
08-17-15, 03:29 PM
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I've never quite got the obsession with corn fructose as bad when just about all natural fruits have it as their primary sugar type.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
08-17-15, 04:24 PM
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I read the book "Food for Fitness", Rodale Press, in the mid 70s. A lot of good stuff there, much of which we are now seeing 40 years later from the science/medical communities.
On part that I took to heart and have never regretted was its take on protein requirements. The book stressed that unless were were actively building muscle (and for a bike racer, that is only early season; after that it is maintenance and recovery), our protein needs were small and easily met and that more meant burdening the digestive system which required shunting blood flow away from muscles that needed repair/recovery to the stomach. In other words, too much protein was interfering with the recovery of those muscles we think we are eating it for.
Based on that book, I settles in at 50 grams/day for my 150 lbs as being comfortable overkill. 50 grams/day is easily met, no "protein" foods required and I have never taken any. I eat 3 eggs a week, most of a quart of yogurt, around a pound of cheese and plenty of beans. Eat out (usually no meat, perhaps a little chicken on pizza) several times a week. In my racing days, there were no animal products except cheese, yogurt and eggs in roughly the above amounts except ~8oz yogurt/day. And as I said in another forum yesterday, wow! did I feel good on that diet!
Ben
On part that I took to heart and have never regretted was its take on protein requirements. The book stressed that unless were were actively building muscle (and for a bike racer, that is only early season; after that it is maintenance and recovery), our protein needs were small and easily met and that more meant burdening the digestive system which required shunting blood flow away from muscles that needed repair/recovery to the stomach. In other words, too much protein was interfering with the recovery of those muscles we think we are eating it for.
Based on that book, I settles in at 50 grams/day for my 150 lbs as being comfortable overkill. 50 grams/day is easily met, no "protein" foods required and I have never taken any. I eat 3 eggs a week, most of a quart of yogurt, around a pound of cheese and plenty of beans. Eat out (usually no meat, perhaps a little chicken on pizza) several times a week. In my racing days, there were no animal products except cheese, yogurt and eggs in roughly the above amounts except ~8oz yogurt/day. And as I said in another forum yesterday, wow! did I feel good on that diet!
Ben
08-17-15, 04:46 PM
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I've never quite got the obsession with corn fructose as bad when just about all natural fruits have it as their primary sugar type.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
Ben
08-17-15, 05:19 PM
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I've never quite got the obsession with corn fructose as bad when just about all natural fruits have it as their primary sugar type.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
Raisins for example have a higher Fructose/Glucose ratio than high fructose corn syrup.
So do most fresh fruits.
Fresh Fruits Highest in Fructose:
Grapes – 7.6g
Apple – 7.6g
Pears – 6.4g
Cherries – 6.2g
Pomegranate – 4.7g
Kiwi – 4.3g
Blackberries – 4.1g
Blueberries – 3.7g
Watermelon – 3.3g
Raspberries – 3.2g
Starfruit – 3.2g
Purple Passion Fruit – 3.1g
the differenc is you don't drink them out of a can.
08-17-15, 05:45 PM
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It isn't the fructose or the glucose that is the issue. It is that the human body has never seen that particular chemical formulation (high fructose corn sugar) before. The problem comes when ask the body to process chemicals that are just enough different that the tools the body has don't quite work. Or we ask the body to deal with chemicals it has seen before but never in amounts to matter. (Sucrose. Where in nature can a human find a source of sucrose to get an ounce of it for a sugar high! That little drop of nectar at the base of flowers that hummingbirds get so readily? That would take a lot of flowers. Sap, like sugar maple sap that we make maple sugar from? At 1/40th the sugar of maple syrup, we'd get pretty sick drinking enough for that sugar high. We could eat sugar beets. Chew on cane sugar. Caribbean kids have been chewing on cane sugar for probably millennia. The sugar is so dilute that they had none of the sugar issues we see now.)
Ben
Ben
08-17-15, 06:07 PM
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The problem is the sheer volume of simple sugars most of us consume in concentrated form.
08-17-15, 06:07 PM
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It isn't the fructose or the glucose that is the issue. It is that the human body has never seen that particular chemical formulation (high fructose corn sugar) before. The problem comes when ask the body to process chemicals that are just enough different that the tools the body has don't quite work. Or we ask the body to deal with chemicals it has seen before but never in amounts to matter. (Sucrose. Where in nature can a human find a source of sucrose to get an ounce of it for a sugar high! That little drop of nectar at the base of flowers that hummingbirds get so readily? That would take a lot of flowers. Sap, like sugar maple sap that we make maple sugar from? At 1/40th the sugar of maple syrup, we'd get pretty sick drinking enough for that sugar high. We could eat sugar beets. Chew on cane sugar. Caribbean kids have been chewing on cane sugar for probably millennia. The sugar is so dilute that they had none of the sugar issues we see now.)
Ben
Ben
IMHO Fructose in fruit where it comes with fiber and the whole package is nothing like HFCS. When I was type II I checked all kinds of foods to see what they did to my blood sugar........pineapple even packed in juice would spike my sugar like crazy, but non citrus fruits and berries did not even cause a blip.
08-17-15, 06:16 PM
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+1.
IMHO Fructose in fruit where it comes with fiber and the whole package is nothing like HFCS. When I was type II I checked all kinds of foods to see what they did to my blood sugar........pineapple even packed in juice would spike my sugar like crazy, but non citrus fruits and berries did not even cause a blip.
IMHO Fructose in fruit where it comes with fiber and the whole package is nothing like HFCS. When I was type II I checked all kinds of foods to see what they did to my blood sugar........pineapple even packed in juice would spike my sugar like crazy, but non citrus fruits and berries did not even cause a blip.
08-17-15, 06:17 PM
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The human body and it's evolutionary ancestors to an even greater extent have been consuming fruits with the same or higher Fructose /glucose ratios for millions of years. We are quite well adapted to it. Why do you think it's called fructose?
The problem is the sheer volume of simple sugars most of us consume in concentrated form.
The problem is the sheer volume of simple sugars most of us consume in concentrated form.
08-17-15, 06:17 PM
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Chemically it's the same, but you'd have to eat six apples to equal one 12 oz soda, (and at most fast food places that's a small)
Wouldn't be surprised if the fiber does slow down absorption though.
Wouldn't be surprised if the fiber does slow down absorption though.
08-17-15, 06:25 PM
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Whole fruit has a different uptake than fruit juice.
08-17-15, 06:30 PM
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My source is my bodily reaction to them. And I did not eat a quantity of each, I ate fruits that were composed of them, all bound up together. Surely you do not think you would have the same insulin response from juicing a fruit and drinking the juice and eating the seperated fiber ?
Whole fruit has a different uptake than fruit juice.
Whole fruit has a different uptake than fruit juice.
08-17-15, 07:41 PM
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I thought the the fiber caused the sugar to absorb slowly, but this isn't my field. Guess my assumption was that more digestion was needed to break down cell walls and get at the sugar.
Lots here demanding sources but making sweeping statements without giving their own sources.
not specifically calling you out, more the thread as a whole.
i avoid fruit in both solid and liquid form, with the exception of certain berries which cause less sugar spike.
08-17-15, 07:49 PM
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So what you are saying is that your body had different reactions to different amounts of sugars? Is that supposed to tell us something? Again, fiber has no effect on glucose or fructose absorption. The difference between juice and eating an apple if you account for equal calories in terms of absorption will be negligible. You will feel more FULL from the apple because of the fiber, but its not slowing down absorption by any appreciable amount
I understand and that you believe this, I just do not agree. Do you have a study that shows that consuming whole fruits gives the same exact insulin reaction in 30 minutes as drinking the juice of the fruit with or without the fiber ?
The study calculated that replacing weekly fruit juice consumption with whole fruits could bring health benefits.For example, replacing fruit juice with blueberries could reduce the risk of contracting type-2 diabetes by 33%, with grapes and raisins by 19%, apples and pears by 13% – and with any combination of whole fruit by 7%.
Replacing fruit juice with oranges, peaches, plums and apricots had a similar effect.
Qi Sun, study author and assistant professor at Harvard School of Public Health, said, in general, fruit juices contained less of the beneficial compounds found in whole fruits.
“The juicing process gets rid of the fruit, just leaving fluids which are absorbed more quickly, causing blood sugars and insulin levels to rise if they contain sugars.”
Replacing fruit juice with oranges, peaches, plums and apricots had a similar effect.
Qi Sun, study author and assistant professor at Harvard School of Public Health, said, in general, fruit juices contained less of the beneficial compounds found in whole fruits.
“The juicing process gets rid of the fruit, just leaving fluids which are absorbed more quickly, causing blood sugars and insulin levels to rise if they contain sugars.”
Extract from Proof Postitive:
From; How to Reliably Combat Disease and Achieve Optimal Health through Nutrition and Lifestyle by Neil Nedley, M.D.
One classic study examined the effects of eating apples in one of three different physical forms: as whole apples, as applesauce, or as apple juice. Even though the same number of calories was consumed from each preparation, eating the apples kept blood sugars steadier than drinking apple juice or using applesauce alone. The change of blood sugar levels through a period time after eating apples in the three forms is shown in Figure 9: Effects of Food Processing on Blood Glucose Levels .81 Note that the blood sugar levels peaked for all three at the same level 30 minutes after eating. Then all levels decreased as sharply as they rose, but each to a different low point. The level for the apple juice consumer fell the lowest, to 50. The level for the applesauce eater went down to 61, while the whole apple eater had a high 66 level as his lowest point. The raw apple eater’s level stayed constant at the high level for the remaining two hours, while the level for the other two stayed at lower values.
Although this study was done in non-diabetics, the blood sugar peaks are more pronounced (higher) in diabetics consuming the juice or sauce in comparison with the whole apple, thus indicating that the natural whole apple will produce a steadier blood glucose that the body can more easily handle. This study demonstrates that eating food in its natural state is the safest and—ultimately—the most satisfying way to enjoy sugar.
This is the new diagnostic criteria. Report of the Expert Committee on the Diagnosis and Classification of Diabetes Mellitus. Diabetes Care 1997 July;20(7):1183-1197. **************************************************************************************************** *************************************
One classic study examined the effects of eating apples in one of three different physical forms: as whole apples, as applesauce, or as apple juice. Even though the same number of calories was consumed from each preparation, eating the apples kept blood sugars steadier than drinking apple juice or using applesauce alone. The change of blood sugar levels through a period time after eating apples in the three forms is shown in Figure 9: Effects of Food Processing on Blood Glucose Levels .81 Note that the blood sugar levels peaked for all three at the same level 30 minutes after eating. Then all levels decreased as sharply as they rose, but each to a different low point. The level for the apple juice consumer fell the lowest, to 50. The level for the applesauce eater went down to 61, while the whole apple eater had a high 66 level as his lowest point. The raw apple eater’s level stayed constant at the high level for the remaining two hours, while the level for the other two stayed at lower values.
Although this study was done in non-diabetics, the blood sugar peaks are more pronounced (higher) in diabetics consuming the juice or sauce in comparison with the whole apple, thus indicating that the natural whole apple will produce a steadier blood glucose that the body can more easily handle. This study demonstrates that eating food in its natural state is the safest and—ultimately—the most satisfying way to enjoy sugar.
This is the new diagnostic criteria. Report of the Expert Committee on the Diagnosis and Classification of Diabetes Mellitus. Diabetes Care 1997 July;20(7):1183-1197. **************************************************************************************************** *************************************
08-17-15, 08:13 PM
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There are general principles of training on the bike to get faster that will work for just about everyone starting out. Once you reach a certain level of fitness, specific programs tailored to your genetics & lifestyle are needed to eek out a few more percent. I think the same is true of diet. Look how some people don't do well with gluten but for others it is not an issue. Carry that idea further. Maybe not a satisfactory answer as it requires experimentation on yourself at this time as there are no well developed methods of teasing this info out for each of us individually. As well remember that we are host to colonies of bacteria and their health influences our own. We are just beginning to understand how this affects our health.
I have always been lean and defined to more or less of a degree. I have tried all sorts of food lifestyles including raw vegan for 8 months or so. I have recently found that lots of veggies (greens), some fruit, few nuts, and a lot of lean protein keeps me full, faster than ever, and low body fat without much trouble. This may very well change but the point is, what works for someone else, may not work for you.
tl:dr YMMV
I have always been lean and defined to more or less of a degree. I have tried all sorts of food lifestyles including raw vegan for 8 months or so. I have recently found that lots of veggies (greens), some fruit, few nuts, and a lot of lean protein keeps me full, faster than ever, and low body fat without much trouble. This may very well change but the point is, what works for someone else, may not work for you.
tl:dr YMMV
08-17-15, 08:24 PM
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Also with no error bars or statistical analysis there is no evident that this is statistically significant. All the values continue to rise as well and haven't come close to leveling off. This isn't a well controlled study and should present insulin levels as well. Your claim that the spikes between juice and eating apples is way different simply aren't true here. The spike is the same, and the eventual blood sugar levels are similar, with similarly shapped profiles. This indicates that they aren't substantially different.