dz_nuzz

@grolby one workout I have credited with really giving me a lot of mental and physical gains is going out for a 2-3 hour ride with the sole purpose of keeping my average watts inside of the tempo zone. Aside from the obvious aerobic workout you get there is an element of mental toughness you end up learning as well that really comes into play during the end game of a road race. See if your coach will schedule one in for you. I don't do them often (Maybe 1-2 times a month) but I really recommend them no matter who you are or what your strengths are.

Be warned, you will want to cry at the end if you did it right.

grolby

Thanks, @tetonrider, that's really helpful. And @dz_nuzz that seems like a good thing to try at some point.

TheKillerPenguin

Ugh, do that. But don't do that. But you should do that. But why would you do that?!

globecanvas

I don't think I understand this. To me, intensity means over 105% of FTP. Over 105% for more than 20 minutes would be right at the ragged edge of what is physically possible and would probably leave me wrecked for a couple of days. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the terms?

Grumpy McTrumpy

intensity can mean a lot of things. a 40k time trial may never even get to 105%. It may also be physiologically as intense as anything you ever do.

tetonrider

He wrote that for anything of longer duration (eg 20') he is training at tempo power, whereas he struggles in races when there are hard efforts for 20'.

I suggested he push slightly higher power than where he is getting popped for close to 20' as well as go slightly lower power for greater than 20'. I didn't say "105%".

It sounds like you have added specific meaning to intensity. I used "intensive" to push the power ceiling and "extensive" to increase the duration. It could be applied to any power or duration, in truth.

tetonrider

The mental component is huge. Increasing the time one can spend at tempo would also fall, for me, as extensive work.

I think here could be many factors at play in the race performance; since he commented specifically on not having "it" for 20', I accepted that and narrowed mt suggestion.

Your suggestion does help someone to learn how to suffer/grovel at the end.

tetonrider

Amen.

globecanvas

I do use "intensity" to mean vo2max or above. It's probably just a specific meaning I assigned on my own though. The rest makes sense now.

revchuck 

What are you guys calling "tempo?" 75-90% of threshold or something else?

Wylde06

90 minutes super easy.

aaronmcd

I almost never do this on a training ride, except the occasional 2 hour fast group ride at the low end of the durration. But almost every road race ends up with average power in tempo zone (Z3). For some reason I'm never motivated to do that solo. Though I do get NP in tempo for a 3-4 hour ride pretty often.

tetonrider

I think it's subjective; I didn't expressly define it when I used it earlier, so it's natural for everyone reading it to assign their own interpretation of the term.

I'd agree that intensity is generally 'shorter & harder' in most power contexts, though it is always relative. Going from zone 1 to zone 2 is an increase in intensity, right?

I think we're on the same page now.

tetonrider

i think that's a generally accepted (power) definition of it.

in working with people i tend to define it a bit more in terms of effort than strict power: a level of riding that can be sustained for 2+ hours but requires concentration. conversation is possible but not always easy--sometimes you look for the shorter way of saying something.

tetonrider

tempo for 2-3h makes you cry? i'm surprised to hear that based on how strong you are and what i've seen of your racing. (serious)

dz_nuzz

Perhaps exaggerated. It makes me start to really hurt at that point. Atleast when I try to keep the average power hovering at between 85-90% of FTP for that long. Most of my races never get me above a Z2 average.

I dunno. My guess is that around here a steady power output is not as common or useful at races due to the terrain in New England so many of us are not very well adapted to putting out a constant number.

tetonrider

ah, ok. so you are talking sweet-spot(-ish) power for 2-3 hours.

that's a different beast than a 2-3h tempo ride.

i'd bet that no races anywhere require steady power (+ or - 2.5%) for 2-3h -- that's not region-dependent.

had a conversation with a buddy a week ago about riding with others: most people seem to smash the hills and cruise the descents. we were saying how we like to keep it in a zone and actually push the downhill. neither one is right--we were just talking about how we like to do our longer rides.

dz_nuzz

Ah yes the whole intensity question . I really should have been more specific really. I feel that any amount of "Tempo for hours" will net you a decent amount of benefit. Really I view it as learning how to deal with long-term fatigue vs. dealing with short-term fatigue. Maybe you need to do 4+ hours of lower Z3 and only 2-3 hours of higher Z3. I feel that both work but one gets things done faster and teaches you to go faster. But this is more anecdote and personal experience than me saying "This is the **** DO IT OR YOU LOSE." I think Lance beat me to that.

TheKillerPenguin

4.25hrs with intervally stuff. I think i accidentally broke my friend

TheKillerPenguin

Also I like the nuzz tempo shenanigans. It really hurts a lot toward the end but if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball or whatever. More than physically, it helps with practicing eating under pressure, keeping watts going on all terrain, keeping your eyes and mind focused so you don't become a lawn dart, etc...

canuckbelle

Tempo for anything >60min is a serious mental effort. I remember the first time I had to do 90min. OMG. The struggle was real.

Ygduf

well, there's the problem.

revchuck 

In spite of the fact that his post directly followed mine, I think he was posting about his ride rather than responding to my question. Those twins must be gettin' to ya.

Ygduf

smh. I don't want to explain the joke but I was just pointing out the coincidence of post timing!

revchuck 

I still say it was the twins...