carpediemracing 

Remember I've never been there so I can't answer on the gravel.

I can say that most of my "new tubular" flats have been on either gravel (once I flatted a brand new tire riding in the parking lot from my car to registration - there was gravel all over the place from some truck or something and I flatted about 50 feet away from my car) or something bizarre (a screw went through my tire and my rim). I flatted on one ride going over a 3 foot wide bit of gravel - they'd put in some pipe under and across the road and covered the non-paved area with gravel. I flatted riding through that 3 foot section. All the gravel flats have been with what I think of when I think of gravel - 1-2" chunks of rock, gray, usually in a driveway or under a basement foundation. All tires affected were ~21mm tires (CX, CG, Clement Criterium, Veloflex, Clement Futura, Wolber something or another).

I've also flatted on dirt roads at speed but usually it's because I hit something I didn't want to hit, either an edgy big rock sticking out of the road or gravel.

Clincher sidewalls are no stronger given the same material; in fact I'd say clinchers aren't as good for a given strength simply due to the fact that you can pinch flat/cut them. However it's possible to buy heavy duty clinchers. No one makes (as far as I know) an Armadillo-like tubular.

I have no idea what I'd run for tires if I were to do a Battenkill. Probably a wide tubular on a rim that I could ride if I flatted. I actually bought some 32H box rims for races that have dirt sections in them or for training on dirt roads (it used to be one of my favorite things to do - in fact we had a mini race mapped around dirt roads for a number of years ending in 2008 or so).

Creatre

I would think tubulars would be ideal because you can run lower pressure (better traction, less harsh) and not worrying about pinch flatting. Is that true? (I'm trying to apply my mountain bike knowledge to this). Or would tubeless be the way to go for the same reason? Do tubulars pinch flat the same way clinchers do?

tetonrider

fair point. earlier, i thought you might be saying -- all else equal -- a tubular sidewall is less strong. i'm glad i asked. anything that i've hit that would destroy a tubular would have destroyed a clincher of similar construction. the reverse is not true. i tend to ride really supple tires, though...tubular or clincher.

there are some tubulars that can be purchased that have more puncture and sidewall protection. they're literally for the worst "roads" in the world and are definitely not necessary for what i ride here in rural wyoming. i'll be curious to see how the battenkill roads stack up.

of course, hitting the wrong thing the wrong way at the wrong time can happen to anyone/any tire.

for something like battenkill, i'd probably ride a 700x25. i'd think a 700x27 or 28 might be overkill and will take the aero hit. i have 700x27s (measure 28.4) on a 32h nemesis; amazing wheel, but probably not one i'd race unless i was on incredibly bad roads (again, worse than any i'd see here).

there are many reasons to go tubular vs clincher, including reduced risk of pinch flats and the potential for a more supple ride. for the really wide stuff, there are often more options in a tubular than clincher. there are some really amazing clinchers now that offer fantastic ride quality, and when used with latex tubes rival tubulars of similar construction (e.g., vittoria open corsa evo cx ii + latex tube is pretty darn close to the vittoria corsa evo cx ii).

another reason is safety, and cdr alludes to it. if you flat with a tubular for any reason, there's still rubber between you and the rim. clinchers will often blow off the rim (or roll off if you attempt to ride them hard). not saying one SHOULD ride for a long time on a flatted tubular, but it's better than riding a flatted clincher.

tubeless is a different animal altogether, but if you run it lower pressure you can still pinch / burp the tire. in my opinion, it is best for areas where there are thorns and such. it's great for MTB applications, possibly less so for road applications. (folks who live in the SW may have a different opinion, with goat heads on the roads.)

if you want a mind-blowing experience and you don't live in an insanely rocky place, try tubulars on a MTB. wider options are somewhat limited, but something like a dugast 50mm tubular is pretty insane on MTB terrain, esp off-camber stuff. it may be impractical, but it rides like a dream. MTB tubeless tires rely on sidewall stiffness to maintain the seal, and at lower pressure the deformation affects the ride quality. when you ride a MTB tubular back-to-back, the tubular does not rely on sidewall stiffness, so the tire conforms to the terrain and you realize what you are missing.

another option is for someone to add sealant to a tube or tubular setup (for the road), which could seal some tiny punctures. personally, i am not a fan of running sealant prophylactically on the road bike, but that's another discussion.

RacerJRP

Top 20 from Saturday I believe it said was needed to get invited to the Sunday race.

carpediemracing 

Gravel will still cut tubulars, that's the main disadvantage of spending coin on nice tubulars. It really sucks to cut a good tubular with good tread and lots of life left in the latex sidewall coating.

Generally speaking tubulars won't pinch flat. I've seen tubulars pinch flatted but it takes an extraordinary impact - the rider I saw do this was a teammate of mine riding about 30-40-50 feet in front of me. He missed a bunny hop landing at about 45 mph. He landed on the far edge of a 3? foot wide cracked pothole. He blew both tires and ballooned out the sidewalls of both wheels. We "fixed" them by squishing them in a vise (more control than vise grips or channel locks). Shortly thereafter he decided racing wasn't for him andy gave me the wheels - I still have them, they're the Specialized TriSpokes that have a thumpy brake surface (I rarely race them now but have lent them out to folks doing TTs and such).

It's possible to ride a flat tubular quite hard. The tire doesn't move off the rim so after you "absorb" the tread sliding sideways a bit the tire has some traction. My teammate rode though a blowout in a hard left turn. A similar flat in a clincher would put you down hard. Once the tubular is flat you don't want to corner hard but you can go around curves in the road, even at speed. The fastest I've ridden on a flat front is about 30-35 mph for a few miles, first to catch two guys that I saw down the road, then riding with them (and then riding about 8-10 miles further to get home; I'd already ridden a few miles before seeing the guys).

You have to consider the rim and tire to be disposable to ride them hard when you have a flat, hence my long-ago purchase of yet another set of 32H box section tubulars. With a flat tire you no longer have that cushion - the next cushion is the rim. If I cut a tubular and am on a disposable rim then I'll ride it. With the Stingers or other carbon rims it's more questionable what I'll do. Actually it's not - earlier this year when I realized, after I got shelled in a race, that I had a flat rear tire, I walked the bike back to the car. Stingers are so wide and the channel so deep that the carbon hits the road easily, more so than when you have a flat 21mm tire spread out on a 20mm rim.

revchuck 

I can't speak specifically to Battenkill, but Rouge-Roubaix sounds very similar - part pavement of varying qualities, and part dirt/gravel road. The tires often seen are 700x25 clinchers of some description, mostly Gatorskins. I've done R-R twice, the first time on 700x25 Gatorskins and the second time on 700x28 Conti Grand Prixs. No problem the first time; the second time I flatted due to having somehow bent the presta stem to a 90 degree angle, apparently screwing up the valve's seal - the tire was fine. I'll be using the Grand Prixs again next year.

grolby

Regarding the road surface at Battenkill - most of the year, these sorts of roads are hard packed dirt with a somewhat loose but very shallow surface. The gravel tends to get swept to the middle and sides of the road, those with less traffic are generally rougher and more gravelly. However, the timing of Battenkill usually coincides with the regrading of at least a couple of the roads used, and a freshly regraded dirt road is hell to ride on, lots of gravel, often with very big pieces. I almost pooped myself going down a recently regraded descent during the race back in 2009. I can't comment on the sharpness of the gravel, I'm not sure, but mostly it's not deep, most of the surfaces are hardpacked and very fast, and even the nasty ones don't have deep gravel, it's just that the pieces are BIG.

As for tires, I did the race on plain old 23mm clinchers, and I had no particular problems, but it should be kept in mind that I was ~123 lbs at the time. I did see a lot of people flat out, I assume from pinch flats. It's worth remembering that the majority of this race is actually on paved roads; the dirt is strategic mostly because the dirt sections are over the steepest, most decisive climbs. Big tires will make very little difference at Battenkill, in my opinion. People often think that riding dirt is like riding pavé or something; it's really not. The thing about these dirt roads is that there's not a lot of resistance, so you can go pretty fast, but you have very limited traction, so it's scary and you risk slipping on the steepest hills. But you don't need special equipment just to ride them. They are still roads, after all.

tetonrider

So true about riding hard but not cornering hard, although wise to think twice with carbon rims. The additional magic of safety, however so sight, is meaningful for me. Running flat is less an issue.

It's actually for this reason that pro teams have been riding 25s. Th buzz picked up by the media is lower crr...but if you talk to the teams it is for their to be rubber between the fatter rims and the road when flat.

Cant imagine riising 21s, flat, on stingers. I think HED is saying min 23s now. I've got some 32s on a set of stingers. Those rims are WIDE!

Racer Ex 

Reminder that reg opens today at 4PM Pacific.

notwist

Took a while but i was able to register for the Cat 4 race. Time to put down the twinkies..

tetonrider

i made it in, too. took a long while and was a PITA. slow page loads and partial page loads (e.g., some required fields, such as "will you attend friday check-in? yes/no" had no radio buttons). had 4 sessions open, 2 OSes & 3 different browsers.

tip: i made it to payments but could not pay through bikereg, so i went through the process again and chose paypal. the paypal payment was actually fast and you don't get handed back to bikereg once handed over to paypal.

good luck all & keep at it!

Allegheny Jet

Just finished up for the Sunday 60+ race. It took about 16 minutes to get to the site. Other than the pages taking a while to load the process went well and I paid via CC.

tetonrider

do you have a link to anywhere details were discussed? i've searched but could not find it. is that top 20 from any field? some groups have 2-5 fields.

i guess i'm not sure how i feel about a champions race on a 2nd day, shorter course, etc. seems like people could take it a bit easy on day 1 to qualify for day 2. if that is the net effect, it would diminish saturday's race results. of course, luck of the draw for one's field could mean a softer race.

in my mind, the winner needs to WIN on the full course. i realize they want to create some parity for groups with multiple fields, i'm just not sure that is the way to do it. how do others feel?

ps thanks, ex, for pointing this out.

globecanvas

It's at the bottom of the registration page.

I think it's a cool idea. See you guys there!

Racer Ex 

In for the 50+.

shovelhd

I decided to focus on Bethel.

grolby

Virten

In!

tetonrider

Thanks. The way I read that, it seems to say there could be 40 to 100 riders (for the categories with 2-5 fields). Just seems odd. Also seems odd to note that one has to be in the top 20....and to have finished. Huh?
yeah...I probably didn't word that well. Don't mean that people could just coast in and finish top 20 in a field of 150....just to say that someone could hold back just a little to save something for the next day.

atill seems to me that the achievement would be winning on day 1. Guess it has more meaning if there is only one field per category.

tetonrider

Yeah!
Boo!

globecanvas

At the moment there are 2 cat 3 fields, 6 cat 4 fields (one was added last night), and 14 cat 5 fields. Automatic invitation to the championship race is the top 20 in each cat 3 field, top 10 in cat 4, top 3 in cat 5.

It's possible to imagine a scenario where spending more energy on Saturday would not gain you anything meaningful but saving energy still guarantees you invitation. For example, if the 3s comes down to a 15-man group sprint that you don't think you have a chance for, you could hang back. But would you intentionally give up a shot at top 10?

Also, this is a race that shatters fields, and also a race where insurmountable leads can hit a pothole and explode, which makes those scenarios even less likely.

Creatre

Registered for the cat3s last night. See you guys there! Looking forward to it.

globecanvas

I rode the 2013 course a few days ago. (Sorry for the duplicate post, those of you who read another forum.)


It is significantly harder than in 2011 or 2012. Part of the reason is there is more climbing, but more of the reason is that the dirt roads are very, very soft. They have raked all of the roads with a machine, creating several inches of loose stuff on top of the roads. Almost nothing was packed down. Carney-Cassidy and Stage Road in particular are absolutely brutal climbs with the surface as loose as it is. Hopefully the dirt will have time to pack down before the race, but if not, expect a lot of racers on the ground and general suffering.


Road raking machine:





Meetinghouse Road:





I put up a bunch of video of the ride here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YV5d...XX3Oog-BeuIE0P

notwist

thanks for the update. aside from the softer dirt, how were the general road conditions? I used 25c tires (and didn't have any issues) but was thinking of going 23c this year

jabbahop

we live on a dirt road in Vermont so am very familiar with the grader problem. They just graded our road two days ago and it is almost back to normal today. The key is how much car traffic the road gets after the grading. If it gets a good amount, it gets packed down quickly. The bigger issue is if we get significant rain between now and the race. That can create nasty potholes and muddy conditions - especially on the sides which get less traffic to pack things down. Either way - beware of loose stuff on the sides.