why would you not go shorter cranks for a climbing bike?

shorter cranks allow for the leg to stay more extended at the top of the stroke, opening the hip angle. you lose short-term torque for a better endurance position. see TT riding and short cranks. I'd also build it with a single chainring. Save weight on the front derailleur and front brifter and just get a decent range in the back. like a 42 / 11/32 setup. something like that.

And I wouldn't skimp on tires. you're unlikely to lose a race by a handful of seconds, and you seem to have terrible luck with flats.

The crank length is good input. I guess because hill climbing and longer cranks at a lower RPM are a tradition. I have some 170s in the box. We may try on Palomar.
Good input - thanks. FWIW my last when I was fit bike was single ring. I do not like high chain tension, meaning I'd rather a 50X25 over a 34X17 - it is worth the weight. But single ring and cutting the FD is a good idea.

Tires - general philosophy is in stage races you must survive to race another day. In a single day, go big or go home. But a 22mm 170g Veloflex Record over 220g 25mm silk FMB is a tough one. I lean toward the FMB. I don't "skimp" on tires. That Knights Ferry flat was NorCal crap that flatted a Tinkoff team tubular. Sometimes wheels being pulled out of faulty frame design gets confused with tires flatting. I also had 1 month delayed delivery in 2015 so had to use bad choices and we had bad luck. Yes - I am sensitive (So the kid is in college instead of Dohar).
Anyway there were no flats this year, nothing since July 2015. None in training, none in racing - that I can remember anyway.

I'd give up 100g if it made the difference between finishing or not.

[MENTION=185230]globecanvas[/MENTION], [MENTION=364302]Doge[/MENTION] was talking about the regular venge at that point, which is not the subject of this issue (it's a hanger replacement more than a recall--the frame itself is fine).

the doge thing was still separate... and not reported by anyone else.

just clarifying this.

because -- for road positions -- hip angle is not usually a constraint.

also, conventional thinking here is that as cadence decreases torque becomes more important; people typically use longer cranks in scenarios where they want more leverage at low RPM. MTBs are an example of this.

It's a paved road climb with planned out gearing. hopefully he isn't getting into low RPM.

I just remember watching an everest challenge winner zoom by on like 100mm powercranks and thinking it was smart because his legs stayed more extended. Like climbing a bunch of 6" stairs instead of 12" stairs. know what I mean?

Either way, the cranks weigh less if they are shorter so [MENTION=364302]Doge[/MENTION] will prefer that!

[MENTION=69140]hack[/MENTION] had the issue per the thread above.

people still (usually) bog down a bit....lower than their normal flat-terrain cadence.

i remember that guy--with the camelbak! lots of people laughed, but he crushed it. if you really thought that, though, you'd be on powercranks....or 150s.

one would think, but it's not always true. for example, hollow shimano 50T 7900 chainrings weigh more than their 53T rings. i haven't weighed arms (doge should!), but it could be that the wall-thickness is greater.

i didn't re-read the whole thread, but globe mentioned you being right, and your comments were about your kid's (non-vias) venge.

you talked with specialized re: your issue (separate), right? no recall.

i didn't know hack had a vias -- that's news to me. :)

if I had unlimited bikes and time I would try to climb on 150s. I'm riding 165 on my road bike now, transferred over from my cervelo tt bike

[MENTION=69140]hack[/MENTION] did not post Vias.
I talked to Specalized and no recall on non-vias. Basically a pain they do not want to deal with. I have it fixed and not planning on selling so likely will do nothing.
The dropout angles cause the wheel to come out under chain tension that is just math/force vectors and easy to show.
It is the skewer clamping that keeps the wheels in. The other bikes I have don't don't need any clamping to keep the wheels in.
I believe this was an engineering over-site.

I cut my old Campy C-Records to 150s for Daniel's first bike trailer experience.

wait....what?

[MENTION=125938]Ygduf[/MENTION] points out ViAS issue/fix.
[MENTION=185230]globecanvas[/MENTION] says 'hey doge, you were right' with a link.
you post about that issue.

i note that you had the issue with the *original* venge.

you then write [MENTION=69140]hack[/MENTION] had the issue, per the thread.

i say [MENTION=69140]hack[/MENTION] has a vias?'

you say no.

WUT????

i know i'm doing other things as i checked this thread, but this is weird.

except this isn't the case for every other venge (non-vias).

i'm not denying YOUR issue, but it is the only time i ever heard of that. i happened to ask a product designer and that's never been noted by anyone they've heard. i can check when i'm there next week.

my whole point was what [MENTION=125938]Ygduf[/MENTION] linked to may sound the same was what you have but is not related to the venge you had for your boy.

cool. most people don't try shorter cranks, and it's also hard--really hard--to go below 165.

would you go shorter on your TT bike if you could (easily)? and then would you have your road bike match?

could help in a really low/aero(/compromised) position.

at some point one loses power; i don't know where that occurs.

i've tested shorter cranks on my TT bike but have always returned to the same as my road position. i'm going to try it again next week, for aerodynamics.

Don't bring me into this ... I ride a cruX!

I had an issue while riding the OG Venge. Had the rear wheel hop loose in a sprint. Aftermarket wheels, aftermarket skewer, it was a while ago and I can't really recall if I had done anything to the wheel prior that could have led to the the quick release being not fully tight (changed a flat, tire, cassette, etc).

Poor comment on their support network and problem tracking. I called then, wrote then and called today. The route to problem resolution is via dealers. That is their choice.

I got that. Likely same engineers/designers - meaning possible the same mistakes.

short answer: if it were easy, like someone said "here's your bike with different length cranks" and all I had to do was ride it I would try everything.

As is, I'm happy where I'm at and too lazy to change it. I think about how long a half-cm is and look at the length of my legs and think again about half a cm. That's a miniscule change in ratio and my resistance to extra effort is pretty high.

i hear ya.

presumably you tested it before you put it on the TT bike, though, right? and then you tested it when you put it on the road bike.

i forget which PM you have, but did you buy a whole new crankset or just swap arms? on some units, a crank arm change can cause slope to change.

people get all upset over 170 vs 172.5.......it's 2.5mm. the so-called range of arm lengths we have (basically 170-172.5-175 covers probably >95% of bikes sold to adults) is pretty silly considering the range of height/leg/femur length among that population.

that makes sense.

i was just basically 'that has nothing to do with [MENTION=364302]Doge[/MENTION]...' :)

called... who?

i can assure you that people care, but one guy reporting a wheel came out of some dropouts of a bike that's been on the market >5 years is not likely to make waves. even though you say it is a bigger issue, logic dictates it's not.

reporting the same issue on a new bike? well, i can tell you first-hand that it attracts a bunch of attention, and people there care VERY much.

try reporting an issue to any company of reasonable size within any industry. i've reported issues to apple (and have had phone calls from engineers to resolve). the fact that many thousands of people are not dremeling their Venges says something.

again, i bet you do have some sort of issue, but i'd also bet it's 3-std dev terrain.

just my guess, though.

I wouldn't presume too much. I just ordered short on the first TT bike on principle, then when I had the shop move the powermeter off the old tt bike to the road bike (newer meter, moving to standard rings) I didn't even think of the crank length until I got on it and my saddle felt low.

I worried about it for half a second, then remembered I have no sprint anyway so max torque isn't my concern, and I spend plenty of time off the front trying to merckx tt it anyhow so the extra .00005 degrees of hip angle when I'm trying to stay low is fine.

On the market >5 years and I have seen year to year model changes. It would not surprise me if one year they changed the dropout angle or decided to harden the steel plates. The issue here is not about caring. It is about a poor system for getting feedback. I's expect Samsung had trouble believing phone asploded too, but I know they track trouble tickets - because I have called them. Anyway....

I called the number listed Specialized recalls Venge ViAS rim-brake bikes | Cyclingnews.com I called Oct 15, 2016 800-722-4423 9:47AM PDT and went through the support menu and got to consumer support. I did not get the support person's name but they said they had never heard of it and said I needed to go through my dealer, which is what I recalled doing 9 months ago.

Wed, May 6, 2015 I called and spoke with Tyler 408 799-6229 x7743 who said he had never heard of it and sent me to my dealer. I continued from there. However then I gave up. The issue is gone, because I took a file to it. So I'm not interested in going through a bunch of work for history or a legal case, just the "never heard of it" is because they apparently do not record call-in issues - or their dealers don't. Tyler heard of it. So did the bike shop and they have serial numbers. Nothing happened and yesterday - they had never heard of it.

I hope this is the same Tyler [MENTION=74778]mattm[/MENTION] and I know who works at specialized and yelled at us to "****ING RUN IT OVER" when someone touched brakes on a descent to avoid a squirrel.

The bike is not here, but there is a basic design flaw. If you draw force vectors/or show a string tangent to the chain ring and to the axle you can see the angle of dropout slot to string. If the up side of that string/dropout angle is acute, the chain pules the axle into the dropout. If it is obtuse, the chain tension will pull the wheel out and clamping tension matters.

Of course two extremes are the old slotted dropouts where wheels had to stay in place near 100% based on clamping pressure and track/TT slots where the wheel could slide, but was never going to come out.

So long ago I made a video to test this using un-clamped skewers. Venge - wheel pulls out. This is as unscientific as my wheel testing videos but it does confirm that the wheels needs that clamping force to stay in. I assume they did this for wheel change benefits. https://vimeo.com/127089488

Ha could be.

Or maybe it was Tyler Durden, and Doge was just talking to himself, a la Fight Club.