Racer Tech Thread
06-08-15 | 07:05 PM
#1753
Ninny
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 1
From: The Gunks
Let the handwringing commence. Traveling next week for a 3-crit weekend and I can only bring one set of wheels. It's too far out for the forecast to be reliable of course, but the extended forecast is currently for rain all weekend.
If not raining I'd absolutely bring 60mm carbon tubulars. If the forecast holds, I'm not sure what to bring. My training wheels are your standard velocity A23 24/28 on decent hubs, neither light nor aero (not heavy wheels, but not light). I've never actually ridden the carbon tubulars in the rain but I assume braking would be horrible to nonexistent.
If not raining I'd absolutely bring 60mm carbon tubulars. If the forecast holds, I'm not sure what to bring. My training wheels are your standard velocity A23 24/28 on decent hubs, neither light nor aero (not heavy wheels, but not light). I've never actually ridden the carbon tubulars in the rain but I assume braking would be horrible to nonexistent.
I've pretty much decided to bring one only set of wheels, the 60mm carbon tubulars. I don't want to deal with schlepping the bike plus a wheel box. If it rains a lot, I'll avoid braking situations
. I flat before the last race of the weekend, I'll bum a wheel off of somebody. The wheels are maybe not totally ideal for Sunday's race but that's going to be a death march anyway.
06-08-15 | 09:09 PM
#1754
Version 7.0
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,844
Likes: 3,859
From: SoCa
Bikes: Road, Track, TT and Gravel
I get multiple uses out of wheel boxes plus the local shops always have boxes available. In fact, I am sitting in a hotel room in SoCal and when I left NorCal, I took an empty wheel box and put a double wheel bag in it so the box had very little supporting infrastructure. I checked it is part of my luggage with Southwest. The box arrived in perfect condition and I am putting a front and rear disc in in the wheelbag and then put the bag in the box and check it in as luggage on my return trip. That is the way the wheel manufacturer shipped the wheels to me. One time, Southwest did not my wheels on the plane and they were delivered to my house the next day. However, a hard case is a great solution.
06-08-15 | 10:45 PM
#1756
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
I don't know a competitor of my son that is not doing some Hypoxia training.
Things change. Just like I don't know anyone (personally) that does not use weights. You raced a kid (actual 16 year old) teammate at San Dimas. You should know.
Things change. Just like I don't know anyone (personally) that does not use weights. You raced a kid (actual 16 year old) teammate at San Dimas. You should know.
06-08-15 | 11:05 PM
#1757
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
I have to step in to defend shovelhd, who is not the kind of guy who "makes up rules to enforce."
You know the rules. 1G6b: official's responsibility to ensure that "numbers are in good condition and properly placed." 1J7b: "Numbers may not be folded, trimmed, or otherwise defaced."
The rules do not address crinkling numbers or pins, but requires them to be properly placed and not defaced. If an official chooses to interpret an unpinned number as improperly placed, or interpret a crinkled number as defaced, that is the official's prerogative. As shovelhd has said in the past, the reason every possible permutation of behavior is not explicitly allowed or forbidden is specifically to give officials the ability to exercise judgement. A number that is attached as a crinkled wad is defaced and unreadable, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that crinkling is not specifically disallowed. A number that is attached with one paper clip would not be properly placed, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that paper clips are not specifically disallowed.
Gray-area behavior, like a number that is somewhat crinkled but mostly readable, will be interpreted different ways by different officials. So it goes. Most racers choose to avoid gray-area behavior for that reason.
You know the rules. 1G6b: official's responsibility to ensure that "numbers are in good condition and properly placed." 1J7b: "Numbers may not be folded, trimmed, or otherwise defaced."
The rules do not address crinkling numbers or pins, but requires them to be properly placed and not defaced. If an official chooses to interpret an unpinned number as improperly placed, or interpret a crinkled number as defaced, that is the official's prerogative. As shovelhd has said in the past, the reason every possible permutation of behavior is not explicitly allowed or forbidden is specifically to give officials the ability to exercise judgement. A number that is attached as a crinkled wad is defaced and unreadable, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that crinkling is not specifically disallowed. A number that is attached with one paper clip would not be properly placed, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that paper clips are not specifically disallowed.
Gray-area behavior, like a number that is somewhat crinkled but mostly readable, will be interpreted different ways by different officials. So it goes. Most racers choose to avoid gray-area behavior for that reason.
Part II.
Unreadable numbers are the responsibility of the promoter and it is the promoter that is to be fined (cash money). So if junior, crinkles a number that is poorly printed and that number is unreadable - fine the promoter.
06-09-15 | 06:52 AM
#1758
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,669
Likes: 0
From: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
If you are a fan of officiating, as you say, then you'd understand the position of the officials. But you don't. You continue to quote rules verbatim without acknowledging how they are interpreted. That's your perogative. It puts perspective on your complaints about officials.
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
06-10-15 | 08:03 AM
#1759
Tyrannosaurus Rexitis
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 934
Likes: 0
From: Cape Cod, MA
Bikes: Scott Addict 6870
I went to my Lbs to check out some aero shaped drops and absolutely hated how they felt on my hands. The 7% of time I would be on the tops wouldn't be worth it to me, plus since I don't want a carbon bar there would be a big weight penalty. No sale.
Also got 2 for 1 stages on closeout today.
Also got 2 for 1 stages on closeout today.
06-10-15 | 08:56 AM
#1760
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,878
Likes: 160
From: BOSTON BABY
06-10-15 | 09:49 AM
#1761
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
We'll its not. At race venues I don't talk to the officials that are working a race I have interest in. I let them do their job - right or wrong. That rules and application vary, finding where they vary affects the little changes. Some incorrect officiating has ruined kids trips. Last year at nationals a juniors TT bike in the shoot (already checked) is seen by an official that says the seat has to be level and changes the kids seat 5 min before start. Kid's race is ruined. Out current team (before we were on it) had the officials reject the nose cones on the SHIVs and have them cut off. So they were - and used. Next year disallowed because they were modified. Lots of other small examples in a sport where making it to the next opportunity is determined by small amounts of time.
06-10-15 | 11:00 AM
#1762
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,878
Likes: 160
From: BOSTON BABY
We'll its not. At race venues I don't talk to the officials that are working a race I have interest in. I let them do their job - right or wrong. That rules and application vary, finding where they vary affects the little changes. Some incorrect officiating has ruined kids trips. Last year at nationals a juniors TT bike in the shoot (already checked) is seen by an official that says the seat has to be level and changes the kids seat 5 min before start. Kid's race is ruined. Out current team (before we were on it) had the officials reject the nose cones on the SHIVs and have them cut off. So they were - and used. Next year disallowed because they were modified. Lots of other small examples in a sport where making it to the next opportunity is determined by small amounts of time.
06-10-15 | 12:53 PM
#1763
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,669
Likes: 0
From: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
If officiating was perfect, then there would be no opportunity for optimization.
One of the most important things I can teach my children is how to deal with adversity. This is how growth happens.
One of the most important things I can teach my children is how to deal with adversity. This is how growth happens.
06-10-15 | 01:49 PM
#1764
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
...
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
If the rules do not mention pins and some UCI races, like Paris Roubaix juniors, have numbers that are issued with adhesive backs and no pins are needed - how would you rule if a rider showed up without pinned numbers?
Would you not allow them to race?
If not on what grounds?
Last edited by Doge; 06-10-15 at 01:55 PM.
06-10-15 | 03:40 PM
#1766
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
I was posting once how we put numbers on using a legal method done in many races and never penalized. Your response was if my son did that and your were the official you would not allow him to race. What was your point and what point am I missing?
06-10-15 | 04:03 PM
#1767
Holy **** it's like we need a whole forum about race numbers.
Hasn't this dead and beaten horse been re-beaten enough?
Hasn't this dead and beaten horse been re-beaten enough?
06-10-15 | 04:07 PM
#1768
Ninny
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 1
From: The Gunks
On February 26 2015, in a different thread, shovelhd did knowingly type the following statement:
On February 27 2015, in that same thread, Grumpy McTrumpy did with knowledge aforethought clarify as follows:
That thread then went pear-shaped, or more accurately it started pear-shaped and ended up extra pear-shaped.
In this thread, on June 10 2015, shovelhd did typograph thusly:
Whereupon Doge, who is truly a Forum Thread Perseverance Machine, did request politely:
Referring to the four-month-old post of February 26.
To continue to follow along as events develop, please consult your Internet Squabble Guide and Companion, which can be found under your seat.
That thread then went pear-shaped, or more accurately it started pear-shaped and ended up extra pear-shaped.
In this thread, on June 10 2015, shovelhd did typograph thusly:
Whereupon Doge, who is truly a Forum Thread Perseverance Machine, did request politely:
Referring to the four-month-old post of February 26.
To continue to follow along as events develop, please consult your Internet Squabble Guide and Companion, which can be found under your seat.
06-10-15 | 04:35 PM
#1769
Killing Rabbits
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,696
Likes: 217
$35 + relegation or DQ for yellow line, $25 for missed sign-in, $100 for unseemingly behavior.
06-10-15 | 04:40 PM
#1770
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,669
Likes: 0
From: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
I said that tongue in cheek. If the CR had warned riders to use pins and some did not, then I would have to let him/her know about it. But if I wasn't the CR I would have no authority to take action like that. Only the CR can. And if I was the CR and arbitrarily pulled riders for something that they could not reasonably be expected to know about would not be good conduct as an official. What this thread did was bring out how people think. How some people interpret what they want the way they want and then criticize others in authority that do the same thing. I'm done with this thread. Point made.
06-10-15 | 05:54 PM
#1771
Nonsense
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,918
Likes: 542
From: Vagabond
Bikes: Affirmative
If you are a fan of officiating, as you say, then you'd understand the position of the officials. But you don't. You continue to quote rules verbatim without acknowledging how they are interpreted. That's your perogative. It puts perspective on your complaints about officials.
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
At last week's state championships, a rider was DQ'd for folding his number. Not crinkling, folding. He was warned not to fold the week before by one of the officials who had worked both races, but he stubbornly refused and showed up next week with a folded number, so it was dealt with.
06-10-15 | 05:58 PM
#1772
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,284
Likes: 1
On the folding numbers bit - is there any usac regulations on number size. As a small guy some race numbers are so damn big they cover just about my entire back.
I used to fold my collegiate numbers but then again collegiate = no rules.
I used to fold my collegiate numbers but then again collegiate = no rules.
06-10-15 | 06:49 PM
#1774
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 10,588
Likes: 427
From: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Yes there is a min, no max. My 60# rider had a real issue with double numbers.
06-10-15 | 08:06 PM
#1775
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,669
Likes: 0
From: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Yes. The rider we were discussing was fined as well.