kingston 

@jeichelberg87, What are you advocating exactly? While I know how to slow down to avoid getting run over by a truck and would like to be able to share that knowledge with less experienced cyclists, I don't know how to expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road. Can you explain how to do that?

jeichelberg87

I am sure your idea is for them to stay at home and in bed right?

My point is this. The same laws for taking care around VULNERABLE ROAD USERS needs to include cyclists. A story involving the killer of a road worker would not remotely begin to include the side stepping from you that you exhibit in this case.

I bet the truck driver knew what right hooks are and I am sure he was supposed to know! We know who was at fault here. The truck driver was at fault. He was the one cited. He should be fined heavily and I am sure he will be found liable in civil court.

Same old song and dance I read here all the time... A cyclist or pedestrian gets killed and all you guys want to type about is, "Gee, we apologize for getting in your way Mr. and Mrs. Motorist! We will try to be more careful next time and not scratch your car!" Makes me sick!

FBinNY 

I'll try to address your points in order.

First off, I like to avoid preaching to the choir so no need to deliver this message on a bicycle forum.

You speak of safe accommodation on public roads just like all other users. Do you mean motorists of which 32,000 or so die annually?

I don't owe you anything, so your demand for "one instance...." falls on deaf ears.

------------------

We each have our ideas about how to solve problems. Some think it's about what others must do, I prefer to think about what I can do, and what I can say to my audience that might make a difference. I can't influence drivers here, but I might influence cyclists since they're the audience, so that's to whom I speak.


Maybe part of the problem is that this is the A&S forum and some are more focused on advocacy while I'm more interested in helping others stay safe. IMO neither is better or worse, they just reflect a different outlook.

jeichelberg87

First of all, answer two questions please?

1) What makes you think cyclists DON'T KNOW HOW TO AVOID GETTING RUN OVER BY A TRUCK!?!?

2) Do you drive?

If so, how do you operate your car around peds and cycles? A little extra care, no? How about telling all your friends and neighbors the same!

Yes. For one, write your legislator to get the law changed to include cyclists and pedestrians classified as vulnerable road users. If a motorist kills a cyclist or pedestrian, they should be fined at least 10 thousand dollars. That's a start.

Then stop writing apologetic pieces for motorists on a bike forum.

jeichelberg87

You think people here don't drive?
I did not demand it.
I asked for it.
You ain't got it.
I think that speaks volumes.

FBinNY 

Since you're so convinced that I don't have it, why don't you deliver your own message to the general audience here, instead of criticizing me. I don't care that you don't like what I say, and I have no desire to change your opinion.

But consider, that the vast majority of my posts are about issues, which most of yours are critical of other people's posts. If you don't like what I post, don't read it, and/or post meaningful posts of your own.

We can let readers of these forums read the various opinions and decide for themselves what they want to file for future reference and what to direct to the circular file.

jeichelberg87

I have been delivering it.

We as cyclists need to stop ***** footing and write legislators to get them to include peds and cyclists as vulnerable road users.

Like I wrote, I did not demand it. I asked for it.

And if your writing deserves criticism in my estimation, then I will give it. If it deserves praise, I will give that too.

Gotcha covered both ways chickie baby!

kingston 

Ummm.. Because 6 people in Chicago have been run over and killed by trucks so far this year. I would say that's pretty compelling evidence that at least some people don't know how to avoid getting run over by a truck.

Yes

I actually drive pretty aggressively most of the time

None of my friends or neighbors are truck-drivers but sure, why not.

I have written literally hundreds of letters to my politicians. I don't think anyone even reads them. By the way drunk drivers get fined a lot more than ten thousand dollars and people still drive drunk.

If by apologetic you mean advocating personal responsibility and safety, I probably won't stop doing that any time soon.

merlinextraligh

Regardless of legal or moral fault, almost all right turn squeeze accidents can be avoided by cyclists, with some foresight.

Rather than screaming for the truck driver's execution, it would be more productive to educate cyclists how to anticipate and avoid these accidents.

While the cyclist may very well be in the right, you don't want to be dead right.

jeichelberg87

I provided a direct quote describing the forum.

jeichelberg87

Why don't you put the hyperbole away for one second. Who screamed for an execution of the truck drivers? The cyclist? Oh wait...she did get executed...Operating a bicycle on a public thoroughfare...severe crime there...

Elbow.

It would be more productive to put signs up stating you kill a pedestrian or cyclist while operating a motor vehicle, you will pay a fine of 10 thousand dollars, no questions asked. Period. End of sentence.

I know it works in terms of reducing road worker deaths.

And **** can the "dead right," mantra. That is so played out.

jeichelberg87

And I would say that is evidence the drivers don't GAS about who they kill or maim. Interesting view, taking the side of the drivers...here on a bike forum...


Driving, according to all education classes related to driving, is supposed to be performed DEFENSIVELY! Not aggressively. If you do not see a change in your approach in the near future regarding how you drive, please scrap the car.

No, your friends and neighbors are motorists. Probably drive like elbows also, given that like minded persons flock together. By letters, I meant letters concerning traffic safety. Given your own description of how you drive, I doubt it.

Got evidence drunk drivers get fined a lot more than 10K?


FTFY...I know you won't. But never fear...I will be here, countering every BS point you make on behalf of the elbow motorists, world round.

kingston 

It took me about 10 seconds to google this:
https://www.bactrack.com/blogs/exper...-cost-of-a-dui

jeichelberg87

And less to read it. Scroll down to where the actual FINES ARE hayseed...

Court Fines

$150-$1,800

The costs of driving drunk are high, no doubt. But the FINES are not that severe.

kingston 

I concede @jeichelberg87. You are well and truly skilled in online debate. I will devote my day tomorrow to complaining about inattentive drivers.

jeichelberg87

Would that you started a letter writing campaign advocating a 10,000 dollar fine for motorists killing a pedestrian or cyclist. Would also that you start driving defensively rather than aggressively.

kingston 

I will post my letters to the forum so you can read them. All the politicians have online submission forms now so it's really easy to do.

Since I probably won't drive again until Monday, I will surely have forgotten about this discussion and drive as aggressive as always. Feel free to send me a reminder.

jeichelberg87

I honestly think that is a good idea. I am going to start a thread on that. You can post a copy of that letter there.

On Monday, October 3, 2016, don't act like an elbow behind the wheel of your car. Drive defensively, not aggressively.

kingston 

Here's my letter to senator Mark Kirk. I'll send similar letters to my other senator and congressman as soon as I look up who they are. Feel free to borrow from my letter for your own campaign.


Hey, Mark,

Good seeing you a few weeks ago when you were in town. I was recently engaged in an online discussion about some of the tragic incidents of cyclists getting run over by trucks in Chicagoland, and one of the forum members made some really convincing arguments about increasing the punishment for inattentive drivers who kill pedestrians or cyclists to at least $10,000. He believes that increasing the fines will deter inattentive driving.

Anyway. It would be really great if you could look into passing some sort of legislation to make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians. I have been convinced that using the violence of the State to keep us safe is better than taking personal responsibility for our own safety. As you know I ordinarily don't waste my time voting, but I may just get around to it this year if you can make this happen for us. Looking forward to seeing you again next time you are in town.

Kingston

79pmooney

The lesson I got as a kid (from my friend's dad) was that if I ever saw the side of a right turning truck in front of me I would be dead in seconds. He never mentioned being right or wrong. The only time I ever did, I was saved by an angel. (Quite literally. See page 1) Legally I would have been in the right.

Ben

howsteepisit

IS there any difference to the DUI driver whether the cost of a DUI is fines or mandatory secondary costs? Its all out of pocket. Also, the idea of not allowing any judicial discretion in penalties leads to some poor results. Recall offenders being sentenced under three strikes laws for stealing a pizza (in LA if I recall). In things of law, there should not be black and white solutions, the world is endlessly complex and one size fits few, not all.

jeichelberg87

Actually, yes there is a difference. One, you do not need to have a lawyer, nor do the other costs presented in the example provided by @kingston necessarily present themselves in each case.

And really, the subject is not DUI's, nor are we are writing about stealing pizzas. We are writing about the killing and maiming of vulnerable road users by motorists, not three strikes. The first penalty in these cases needs to be more severe than its current form.

jeichelberg87

You write a US Senator concerning traffic laws and public safety on public thoroughfares in the state rather than local reps? Not to mention the phrase "...using the violence of the State..."

Elbow. No wonder the letters go unanswered.

If you think for one minute any of my writing indicates an abdication on the part of any road user or pedestrian to ignore or remain neglectfully conscious of their own individual safety, think again.

kingston 

Great point. I'll need to find out who the state and local politicians are. I have no idea. I hope they have online submission forms like the national guys do.

Isn't that what you're advocating? Threat of violence is the only tool the State has for influencing behavior.

What do you mean when you call people elbow? I assume it's derogatory.

Thanks for the clarification. I have never seen any suggestion in this thread that you advocated personal responsibility. Good to know that you do.

Also, if you want to write the letter I'll send it. I didn't expect that my first draft would be perfect.

kingston 

In fact there is no difference. Money is fungible. In real life people don't care if they are paying a fine or a court cost or whatever. It's all the same. Also, the research I have seen on crime prevention and safety suggests that increasing the harshness of the penalty has little to no impact. The hypothesis is that people don't believe they are going to get caught so they don't think about the harshness of the penalty if they do.