sbhikes

I have a situtation.

It is VC that when you make a left turn you don't do it from the right side of the road. I have to make a left turn lane on a two lane road (one lane in each direction.) The road is very twisty and I'm going up hill. The street I turn onto is so steep I have to gear down to my lowest. If I don't time this correctly, I have to get off and walk. If I have to stop because of on-coming traffic I have to get off and walk. If I have to stop because of on-coming traffic the line of sight behind me is so poor I run a real risk of being hit from behind. In other words, I can't stop and wait and be safe. Most people are speeding.

Riding VC doesn't do a whole lot to keep me safe in this condition. When I get into the situation where I'm going to have to stop and walk I usually end up taking a dive into the right shoulder, then running across the street as a pedestrian once it's clear. Running because there is no crosswalk and walking might get me killed, too.

CB HI

So what other method of riding makes you safer in the situation you describe than VC.

Is the car that stops to make the left turn in less danger of being hit from behind from a car coming around the bend too fast for the sight distance?

Too often, people use poor roadway design or the unlawful driving of others as some sort of reason why VC does not work. When looked at critically, VC still provides the safest means of riding.

In your case, with the unlawful speeding and combined poor line of sight at your turn, I would consider riding past the left turn location to a point with a safe line of sight for you to make a U-turn. Then you will be riding downhill and be able to make a right turn at the roadway you desire without having to stop in an area with a poor line of sight. I suspect, trying to run across the road at this point is also very dangerous.

There are poor roadway design locations that I would not attempt a left turn in a car, motorcycle or bicycle. Does that mean I should avoid vehicular car driving as well as vehicular cycling?

Dchiefransom

Yes. It's larger, and people are looking for it. They don't see a pedestrian stopped in the middle of the lane. I say pedestrian because that's the size we are when riding.

Helmet Head

What about a motorcyclist?

And what are you recommending instead of VC in this situation?
Do you recommend it for Hell Angels too?
If not, why not?

Serge

Dchiefransom

This is why people label you as a zealot about "VC". A question was asked, and an accurate answer was given. Mabye YOU'd like to answer how a person on a bike, or walking, or even a motorcycle as you suggest, would be just as easy to see as something the size of a car. The safe speed for seeing a car would be faster than the safe speed for noticing something smaller.

It's funny that you would bring up Hells Angels on this forum, since the way they respond to not getting respect on the road would be immediately put down by most here.

CB HI

Boy am I glad you told me that. I had it all backwards. You see, 95% of my transportation needs since 1976 have been taken care of either on a motorcycle or bicycle. I have been hit from behind twice in a car. I have never been hit from behind on a motorcycle or bicycle. My overwhelming personal data indicates you are wrong concerning being hit from behind.

Other data indicates motorcycles are in more accidents either because of their excess speed and/or other motorist do not see them as they approach and pull out in front of the motorcyclist.

The studies I have seen indicate adult VC cycling is much safer than motoring. Most studies that come to a different conclusion include child cyclist and non-VC cyclist.

Dchiefransom

That depends on how the results of those studies are viewed. If you actually look at the stats from another angle, study results can change easily. Is flying on airliners safer than traveling by car? Look at it from the number of deaths/injury per crash, and the results of that study change.
You asked if the chances were greater, and I said yes because on a bike we're smaller, and harder to see.

CB HI

I beg to differ with your assertion that you accurately answered the question. The question was:

“Is the car that stops to make the left turn in less danger of being hit from behind from a car coming around the bend too fast for the sight distance?”

If a driver is moving at a speed beyond their sight distance, that means that the driver coming around a bend cannot stop in time for any object the see regardless of the object size behind that bend. That includes a bicyclist to semi-truck.

It is also funny that you would rather attack Serge, rather than provide a coherent response as to an alternate method of cycling other than VC which would be safer in this situation.

CB HI

So your conclusion is that driving is safer than commercial flying? Is this also how you warp your view of cycling?

I-Like-To-Bike

Really? What credible studies have YOU seen that EVER measured the use/effects of defined "vehicular cycling" techniques; or EVER identified a distinct group of cyclists that could be accuratly described (by measured behavior) as "vehicular" cyclists and evaluated/measured their so-called safety record as being better/worse/same than any body or anything else?

Dchiefransom

Warp? How is that warped? Do these studies you've seen adjust the risk of cycling vehicularly for the amount of time we actually spend out in the direct travel lane? No, they don't, do they? If we are over to the right on a wide lane, we're not out in the direct travel line. If you put bikes right out into traffic, all the time, the statistics should change.

Like I said, the way statistics in a study are manipulated gives the desired results. People say that commercial airliners fly more miles without accidents. I said if we compare the number of deaths per accident the statistics would change. It depends on what the people doing the study desire for an outcome.

CB HI

A clear display of a lack of understanding of VC.

CB HI

Even though I agree there are too few studies; you spent enough time on Chaingaurd and BTI to see the few which were well done. Go back and review the archives Stanley Batt.

https://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/chainguard/
https://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BTI-list/

genec

I chose "Other" as I ride VC most of the time... VC also includes riding to the right, where you are the slowest traffic... which I often do, and often I am in Bike Lanes.

There are several hills on my commute, where I go about 8 MPH while motor traffic goes about 45+MPH. I enjoy the bike lanes in particular in these areas as they alert drivers that a cyclist will be up ahead... in the Bike Lane, and perhaps around their next blind corner. I notice with Bike Lanes that motorists tend to "stay between the lines."

I pull out of Bike Lanes as I approach intersections, and whenever they may be unsafe (poor designs or other reasons), and of course if I am anywhere near the speed of the motor traffic.

Anywhere a Bike Lane does not exist, I tend to ride in the right tire track of the motor vehicles.

In violation of VC, I do on occasion "bump" some stop signs (treat them as yields).

While some may tout the "fun" of high speed (45MPH+) dense traffic, I do find it stressful, in spite of my long experience and skill... But then I find I am hyper alert to the odd moves some motorists make.

BTW my commute also takes me onto the Freeway where traffic travels a 65+MPH typically. I go along the shoulder in this area and then have to cross an exit ramp to set up for a left turn. I signal well ahead and make my intentions well known while looking back, while right on the edge of the shoulder... some motorists totally ignore me, but eventually someone slows down and gives way... I am doing about 8MPH at this time... so they have to see me, past tall vegetation, at an exit ramp and make their decisions in scant seconds.

sbhikes

I always start with the intention to take that turn in a VC manner, from the left tire track. It's just that when the conditions are not good, I have to take a dive into the shoulder and then run across the street. A motor vechicle does not have to do that. But I feel I do to keep from behing killed by cars behind me.

Maybe if I had a fancy road bike instead of a recumbent, and I was some super-fit roadie guy, I could feel confident track-standing on the double-yellow line, but I choose to ride a recumbent because of all the benefits recumbents offer. Plus I'm just some lady still recovering from a hysterectomy so give me a break. I really don't think you have to be some kind of macho athelete just to get around on a bicycle. In fact, believing you have to be super fit is just another form of cyclist inferiority complex.

Cars can be seen easier than me on my bike because they are bigger--wider, taller, bullkier. They can be seen sooner around the bend, they have tail lights, they are shiny. And if someone were to hit me in a car, the car would protect me. I don't feel so protected on my bike.

Yes, it's a roadway design issue. It's a "country" road. I ride the same route on my motorscooter and it's just as scary, but unlike on the bike, on my scooter I have power to take these hills at speed.

There is no other solution or suggestion. I'm merely offering a situation where strict, Forestian VC, and attitude an all that other junk just doesn't overcome all the limitations of riding a bicycle. Oh and ride up ahead an pull a u-turn? This road snakes around like a series of hilly S-curves forever. Find another route? This is a detour while the main route is under construction. When the main route opens, there's supposed to be a nice bike lane. If it is better than the quiet detour route, I'll use it. Otherwise, after I make that nasty turn, I rather like the quiet detour and I'll keep doing it.

Seanholio

I'm in San Jose as well. There is a ton of good information in everyone else's replies.

Personally, when it is safe for me to do so, I ride in the bike lanes. I use a mirror to monitor the other vehicles who may try to cross through my lane when I'm approaching an intersection. I leave the bike lane when it is safer for me to do so.

Part of my commute takes me down Lafayette in Santa Clara, between the University and Central Expressway. There is no room to share the rightmost lane, so I take it for myself. Most car drivers understand, and they go around me. I generally don't receive any antagonism for this. The same on Lincoln through Willow Glen.

If you keep your speed up, and behave in a polite manner, the conflicts will be minimal, and your discomfort will fade over time as you realize that you're not inconveniencing that many people by very much. Consider the garbage truck, the backhoe, or the tractor you will occasionally see. Who creates more inconvenience? You, who will pull back into a bikelane when it is safe for you to do so, or the tractor, who has no such option?

AverageCommuter

I would disagree. I can't recall reading anywhere, either in his book or from the "hardcore VC'ers" here, stating that in order to ride VC you HAVE to follow the exact same path in the exact same way that you would in a car. Your route should be vehicle appropriate. For quite some time I drove the largest truck/trailer combination allowed without a CDL. Many times it was necessary to make maneuvers that a car would not have had to (3 lefts = 1 right, vice-versa, etc.). You say that there is nowhere to ride up ahead and do a u-turn? How about a place where you can turn right, do a u-turn on that street, then turn left from it back to the street you were travelling on? Or keep riding to the next left and see if there happens not to be anyone coming toward you there so that you can u-turn on that street? How about the street after that one? Just because you don't want to find a VC way to do something does not mean it does not exist.

As far as not being visible goes, check with the local PD and see if it's a place where an unususally high number of motorcycle accidents are. If the cars can see a motorcycle, they can see you.

genec

Yeah, but are they looking for you?

Sure, you are out there, you are are bright and visible, yet they still pull out in front of you (in particular at right on red stoplights). Why, because the driver is doing a quick glance and looking for only for something large, moving their way. You do not register in their mind.

This puts you on the defensive at every intersection where an auto exists, even if you look right into the eyes of that driver.

CB HI

It is a myth “that to ride VC, you have to be some super fit, super skilled roadie”. All bikes and all riders can ride VC if they are willing to learn, practice and dispose of some of their baseless fears.

My hats off to you, the fact that you are willing to ride uphill and make a left turn from the left tire track on this winding road on a recumbent, tells me that you are an extremely skilled and experienced rider. My travel bike is a folding recumbent. Mostly because I can take it on a plane trip for free (I hate paying airline extortion), but also, a recumbent is fun to drive. We both know that a recumbent reduces the initial speed with which we are able to accelerate from a stop, making the left turn unsafe to perform from a stop. Your choice to change mode to pedestrian in this case is not counter or anti VC, it is what VC would dictate for safety. I was not trying to put you down. Forgive me if you read it as a put down, I will try harder next time to avoid any such misunderstanding.

I grew up in Colorado, and I have a winding gulch in Hawaii I ride on a daily commute. I know what you are talking about with continuous S-curve roads. My suggestion of passing the turn deals with gaining a better line of sight for you before crossing the roadway. For example, you might ride to the apex of the next left hand curve. At this point, you have a longer line of sight both uphill and downhill (over the point you normally make your left turn). That should make for an easier and safer road crossing either by riding or running.

I would never suggest any bicyclist should have to find another route. We deserve to use any route we choose. If engineering problems exist, then it is the engineering problem that should be fixed. If the problem is law breakers, then the cops should be giving tickets for that (rather than this stupid click it or ticket campaign). I have been told too many times that I should choose another route or ride the bus when I have pointed out poor road engineering.

Glad to hear your main route will be back soon. I am still trying to convince the State to fix the gulch road on my main route (so no more drivers have to die because of it’s poor design and the speeders).

I-Like-To-Bike

A review of archives reveals - Zero studiies of any group of cyclists that have ever been identified as vehicular cyclists as defined by any measured metric.

Zero is not "too few". Zero means NONE.

So the question rermains, WHAT study about vehicular cyclists have YOU seen that measured their behavior, safety record, or even recorded their existance?

genec

I think the real myth is the definition of VC cycling... Some think it is driving a bike just like a car, and in the same place as a car. (I used those terms for a reason).

The reality is that VC means going in the same direction as all other traffic, merging, signaling, keeping to the right as any other slow vehicle, and acting just like any other vehicle by using the proper lanes to turn, or to travel across intersections to ultimately arrive at the desired destination. There is no exclusion of the use of Bike Lanes, nor requirement to travel full time in the middle of any other lane. One should simply use that part of the lane and roadway that is optimal for the immediate destination and in doing so, should act like any other user of the roadway, negotiating, acquiring and conceding ROW where appropriate.

Now the "problems" that do arise come from situations where the roads are narrow, and high speed and the traffic is dense... in these situations the cyclist should take a proper position on the road to "protect their space," but the conflicts that sometimes occur between skilled cyclists and selfish motorists can make these moments quite uncomfortable... this is especially true, and is addressed by Forester, et. al. when the speed difference between the cyclist and the motorists are quite high.

powertoold

I think you misunderstood my intentions for this poll Genec. The poll options hint at what I mean. When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane. Sure, we usually ride on the right lane, but we don't need any other lanes. Bike lanes separate cyclists from cars; therefore, you are not riding as a car.

DonD

After reading through Forester's book and getting a good understanding of what I'm supposed to be doing, I've been riding vehicularly. I feel pretty comfortable now, though I can't say it was that way when I began.

There's 1 intersection that I dismount and cross as a pedestrian, as the traffic pattern seems a bit dangerous otherwise. It's a 5-way intersection where 2 of the streets are moving at any time. There are 2 lanes, one of which is left-turn only, though people sometimes use the right lane to get into the intersection, then take the 2nd left turn. I'm going straight-ish towards the 2nd right turn, which means I shouldn't be on the right side of the right lane. I shouldn't be on the left side of the right lane. I pretty clearly should be in the center of the right lane, but don't feel visible enough that I won't get hit by an oncoming left-turner if I'm behind an SUV or truck. So I dismount, and cross twice as a pedestrian. It only takes a minute, and seems like the best option.

- Don

powertoold

Yes, I tried to VC during heavy commute hours today. It felt nice not having to ride in the dirt and gravel and not having gardener trucks and trash bins in my way. However, I felt a little bit nervous. People passed me like their 4 seconds of time is worth something. I mean, seriously, they pass by me with 1-2 feet to spare like they're trying to taunt me. Not one, but about 5 cars did this, plus a nice 4-person latino family honked incessantly at me while passing by with 2 feet to spare. This was at an intersection too, where I am supposed to be in the middle of the lane and was to turn right in one block anyway.

Is this just the American society or do people not know the rules of the road or do people have no consideration for cyclists? If I moved left a little bit on each of those passes, they would have hit me or I would have hit them. Clearly, I would not win.

Edit: It wasn't too heavy, moderate, there was plenty of room on the left lane.

DonD

People do know know the rules of the road. This is reinforced by the media.

This being 'Bicycle Safety Month', I heard a broadcast over the radio this morning where some guy (I missed his credentials) advocated things to do to be a safe bicyclist:
- Wear a helmet.
- Ride on the right side of the road, out of the way of traffic.
- Stick to smaller, less travelled roads when possible.
- If there is a shoulder, you should ride there, especially on curves, where cars are less likely to see you.
- If at night, you should have reflectors on your bike and reflective clothing. (ahem..lights?)
- Rather than ride on the roads, it's much better to go to a bike path (MUP I think he meant..we have a couple of the Rails-to-trails paths around).

When the DJ asked if it was OK to bike and talk on your cell phone at the same time, he replied with something along the line of 'As long as you keep 1 hand on your handlebars, it's OK'.

It all 'sounds' like good information, but I certainly feel like he should have left it at Ride on the Right and wear a helmet. But everyone listening hears this and believes that if you are not 'out of the way of traffic' and 'on the shoulder', you are both violating their rights as drivers AND being unsafe.

- Don