View Poll Results: Do you ride vehicularly?
No, I don't, but I feel unsafe sometimes riding on the right.
0
0%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll
Vehicular Cycling Poll, who does it?
05-31-05, 09:31 AM
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Down on East End Avenue.
Posts: 1,816
Bikes: Salsa Las Cruces, Burley R&R and a boat load of others.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
This sounds like the anti-VC rhetoric sprinkled throughout Robert Hurst's book, The Art of Urban Cycling.
Here's the thing, can you provide even one example, real or hypothetical, to illustrate your point? In what situation might adhering to VC 100% get you killed, and violating the vehicular rules of the road (which is what not riding VC means) would save you?
If that's not what you mean, what do you mean by, "adhering to [VC] 100% may get you killed"?
Here's the thing, can you provide even one example, real or hypothetical, to illustrate your point? In what situation might adhering to VC 100% get you killed, and violating the vehicular rules of the road (which is what not riding VC means) would save you?
If that's not what you mean, what do you mean by, "adhering to [VC] 100% may get you killed"?
If you are going to ride the sidewalk you have to be aware of the dangers associated with that. Car backing out of a driveway for example. Just like you have to be aware of the dangers in the streets-- being doored for exapmple.
I think that as the baby boomers age and more are killed in pedestrian accidents or kill pedestrians/ bikers while driving there will be more PSAs that can alert motorists to the porblems that they cause.
05-31-05, 09:45 AM
#52
Senior Member
Originally Posted by powertoold
I think you misunderstood my intentions for this poll Genec. The poll options hint at what I mean. When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane. Sure, we usually ride on the right lane, but we don't need any other lanes. Bike lanes separate cyclists from cars; therefore, you are not riding as a car.
Paul
05-31-05, 09:46 AM
#53
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
- Ride on the right side of the road, out of the way of traffic.
- Stick to smaller, less travelled roads when possible.
- If there is a shoulder, you should ride there, especially on curves, where cars are less likely to see you.
- If at night, you should have reflectors on your bike and reflective clothing. (ahem..lights?)
- Rather than ride on the roads, it's much better to go to a bike path (MUP I think he meant..we have a couple of the Rails-to-trails paths around).
- Stick to smaller, less travelled roads when possible.
- If there is a shoulder, you should ride there, especially on curves, where cars are less likely to see you.
- If at night, you should have reflectors on your bike and reflective clothing. (ahem..lights?)
- Rather than ride on the roads, it's much better to go to a bike path (MUP I think he meant..we have a couple of the Rails-to-trails paths around).
Where is the voice of the VC cyclists?
05-31-05, 09:49 AM
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
however, I only take the lane when necessary -- left turns, intersection with a right turn, nonsharable narrow lane, etc.
05-31-05, 10:30 AM
#55
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI
It is a myth “that to ride VC, you have to be some super fit, super skilled roadie”. All bikes and all riders can ride VC if they are willing to learn, practice and dispose of some of their baseless fears.
My hats off to you, the fact that you are willing to ride uphill and make a left turn from the left tire track on this winding road on a recumbent, tells me that you are an extremely skilled and experienced rider. My travel bike is a folding recumbent. Mostly because I can take it on a plane trip for free (I hate paying airline extortion), but also, a recumbent is fun to drive. We both know that a recumbent reduces the initial speed with which we are able to accelerate from a stop, making the left turn unsafe to perform from a stop. Your choice to change mode to pedestrian in this case is not counter or anti VC, it is what VC would dictate for safety. I was not trying to put you down. Forgive me if you read it as a put down, I will try harder next time to avoid any such misunderstanding.
I grew up in Colorado, and I have a winding gulch in Hawaii I ride on a daily commute. I know what you are talking about with continuous S-curve roads. My suggestion of passing the turn deals with gaining a better line of sight for you before crossing the roadway. For example, you might ride to the apex of the next left hand curve. At this point, you have a longer line of sight both uphill and downhill (over the point you normally make your left turn). That should make for an easier and safer road crossing either by riding or running.
I would never suggest any bicyclist should have to find another route. We deserve to use any route we choose. If engineering problems exist, then it is the engineering problem that should be fixed. If the problem is law breakers, then the cops should be giving tickets for that (rather than this stupid click it or ticket campaign). I have been told too many times that I should choose another route or ride the bus when I have pointed out poor road engineering.
Glad to hear your main route will be back soon. I am still trying to convince the State to fix the gulch road on my main route (so no more drivers have to die because of it’s poor design and the speeders).
My hats off to you, the fact that you are willing to ride uphill and make a left turn from the left tire track on this winding road on a recumbent, tells me that you are an extremely skilled and experienced rider. My travel bike is a folding recumbent. Mostly because I can take it on a plane trip for free (I hate paying airline extortion), but also, a recumbent is fun to drive. We both know that a recumbent reduces the initial speed with which we are able to accelerate from a stop, making the left turn unsafe to perform from a stop. Your choice to change mode to pedestrian in this case is not counter or anti VC, it is what VC would dictate for safety. I was not trying to put you down. Forgive me if you read it as a put down, I will try harder next time to avoid any such misunderstanding.
I grew up in Colorado, and I have a winding gulch in Hawaii I ride on a daily commute. I know what you are talking about with continuous S-curve roads. My suggestion of passing the turn deals with gaining a better line of sight for you before crossing the roadway. For example, you might ride to the apex of the next left hand curve. At this point, you have a longer line of sight both uphill and downhill (over the point you normally make your left turn). That should make for an easier and safer road crossing either by riding or running.
I would never suggest any bicyclist should have to find another route. We deserve to use any route we choose. If engineering problems exist, then it is the engineering problem that should be fixed. If the problem is law breakers, then the cops should be giving tickets for that (rather than this stupid click it or ticket campaign). I have been told too many times that I should choose another route or ride the bus when I have pointed out poor road engineering.
Glad to hear your main route will be back soon. I am still trying to convince the State to fix the gulch road on my main route (so no more drivers have to die because of it’s poor design and the speeders).
I wish I had enough energy to ride up that silly road the mile it would take to find a good place to turn around. But it's after work and I just want to go home. I tried this on my scooter once and found that making a U-turn across a double-yellow line even if I can see isn't very safe (or legal) either.
What I don't get is why in Hawaii would anybody ever drive a car? I would ride a beach cruiser every day and wear sandals and never worry about getting wet in the rain. Ah, but it's a stereotype, isn't it? I digress.
I have to say that if I could change my vote, I would. I got pulled over (by a bike cop no less) the other day for not stopping at a red light (well, I did stop, but then I said to hell with it and just went.) So I suppose I ride VC less than 95% of the time since I guess I'm not too good at stopping completely at lights and stop signs.
As far as riding taking the lane all the time? Put me down for practically never. I don't have much reason to except on a couple of narrow residential roads.
05-31-05, 10:46 AM
#56
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by powertoold
I think you misunderstood my intentions for this poll Genec. The poll options hint at what I mean. When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane. Sure, we usually ride on the right lane, but we don't need any other lanes. Bike lanes separate cyclists from cars; therefore, you are not riding as a car.
This is exactly where some of the vitrol between some VC proponents and others exist. VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is. VC is not anti-bike lane, but some seem to preach that it is. (Sidenote: this is not an endorsement of all bike lanes either, so don't that idea either)
VC means going in the same direction as all other traffic, merging, signaling, keeping to the right as any other slow vehicle, and acting just like any other vehicle by using the proper lanes to turn, or to travel across intersections to ultimately arrive at the desired destination. There is no exclusion of the use of Bike Lanes, nor requirement to travel full time in the middle of any other lane. One should simply use that part of the lane and roadway that is optimal for the immediate destination and in doing so, should act like any other user of the roadway, negotiating, acquiring and conceding ROW where appropriate.
05-31-05, 10:53 AM
#57
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
The reality is that VC means going in the same direction as all other traffic, merging, signaling, keeping to the right as any other slow vehicle, and acting just like any other vehicle by using the proper lanes to turn, or to travel across intersections to ultimately arrive at the desired destination. There is no exclusion of the use of Bike Lanes, nor requirement to travel full time in the middle of any other lane. One should simply use that part of the lane and roadway that is optimal for the immediate destination and in doing so, should act like any other user of the roadway, negotiating, acquiring and conceding ROW where appropriate.
Originally Posted by powertoold
When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane. Sure, we usually ride on the right lane, but we don't need any other lanes. Bike lanes separate cyclists from cars; therefore, you are not riding as a car.
VC does not mean "riding as a car". VC does not stand for "Car Cycling", it stands for Vehicular Cycling. There are many types of vehicles other than cars that have the right to travel on our roadways, and must obey the same vehicular rules of the road. From horse and buggy to tractor trailers, it's all vehicles. Same rules. Same rights. Same roads. VC is about riding in accordance to the same rules that every other vehicle driver does.
This is from the Wikipedia entry on "Vehicular Cycling" (which I wrote):
Misconceptions About VC
There is considerable confusion expressed on the internet about the meaning of vehicular cycling. Some people mistakenly describe VC as, "cycling as if you're a car". But bicycles are not cars, and the vehicular rules of the road apply to not just cars, but all kinds of vehicles, from horse and buggies to tractor trailers, and everything in between, including bicycles. Some rules have more relevance to drivers of some vehicles than to others because of unique physical and operational characteristics of some vehicles. For example, because of the narrow nature of motorcycles, motorcyclists can often share (split) lanes that are too narrow for two standard width vehicles to share. This is also true for bicyclists, whose vehicles also have the narrow characteristic. Truck drivers require special training, as do bus and taxi drivers, and motorcyclists. Some people advocate special training for cyclists to learn vehicular cycling, such as the Effective Cycling program. One of the main vehicular rules that has special application to cyclists riding on roadways is that drivers of slower vehicles should keep to the side (when safe and reasonable) between intersections, though many people forget that at intersections and their approaches lane position should be selected according to destination. Cyclists who ride in the center of a lane needlessly impeding faster traffic are sometimes mistakenly referred to as vehicular cyclists; yet by definition a cyclist who needlessly impedes faster traffic is violating the vehicular rules of the road and is hence not riding vehicularly. Another misconception about VC -- that riding in bike lanes is non-vehicular -- probably stems from Forester's opposition to bike lanes. But Forester himself has written and said countless times that riding vehicularly often involves riding in bike lanes, when the bike lane happens to coincide with the appropriate place to cycle for the given factors and conditions. So VC does not require staying out of bike lanes all the time.
Serge
05-31-05, 10:59 AM
#58
Huachuca Rider
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 4,275
Bikes: Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
This puts you on the defensive at every intersection where an auto exists, even if you look right into the eyes of that driver.
__________________
Just Peddlin' Around
Just Peddlin' Around
05-31-05, 11:04 AM
#59
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is. VC is not anti-bike lane, but some seem to preach that it is.
By the way, do not confuse being opposed to all bike lanes (as I am) with being opposed to using bike lanes when they exist and it being safe, appropriate, reasonable to use them (which I am not).
Serge
Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-31-05 at 11:10 AM.
05-31-05, 11:15 AM
#60
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by powertoold
Do cars yield to you at intersections? I always have problems trying to concentrate on riding with one hand, signaling left so I can get in the middle of the lane at the intersection, and looking back at the same time. One of these days, I will hit some car on the right or lose control and wipe out from having too many things to worry about.
05-31-05, 11:17 AM
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I checked off "other" - I try to drive my bike VC if it is practical; however, when there's alot of (car) traffic, and no shoulder, I'll go to the sidewalk. there are other situations where I may not be VC, but I'd say I'm about 80-90% VC and the rest is whatever is convenient for me at the particular time based on road conditions (and my mood).
05-31-05, 11:29 AM
#62
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by CB HI
Boy am I glad you told me that. I had it all backwards. You see, 95% of my transportation needs since 1976 have been taken care of either on a motorcycle or bicycle. I have been hit from behind twice in a car. I have never been hit from behind on a motorcycle or bicycle. My overwhelming personal data indicates you are wrong concerning being hit from behind.
Other data indicates motorcycles are in more accidents either because of their excess speed and/or other motorist do not see them as they approach and pull out in front of the motorcyclist.
The studies I have seen indicate adult VC cycling is much safer than motoring. Most studies that come to a different conclusion include child cyclist and non-VC cyclist.
Other data indicates motorcycles are in more accidents either because of their excess speed and/or other motorist do not see them as they approach and pull out in front of the motorcyclist.
The studies I have seen indicate adult VC cycling is much safer than motoring. Most studies that come to a different conclusion include child cyclist and non-VC cyclist.
Oddly enough the most common motorcycle/auto accident is where a motor vehicle makes a left across and in front of a motorcycle. So you are saying that these are typically the fault of the motorcyclist due to excessive speed?
05-31-05, 11:36 AM
#63
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Gene, do you know of any VC advocates who preach that VC is always taking the lane, or that VC means never riding in a bike lane?
I did say that it does not mean always taking the middle of the lane... where as others think otherwise:
Originally Posted by powertoold
When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane.
By the way, do not confuse being opposed to all bike lanes (as I am) with being opposed to using bike lanes when they exist and it being safe, appropriate, reasonable to use them (which I am not).
Serge
Serge
05-31-05, 11:37 AM
#64
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Gene, given that motorcyclists are about as unlikely to be seen as are bicyclists in a left hook situation, it should be no surprise that motorcyclists are in more danger since they are typically traveling faster.
05-31-05, 11:39 AM
#65
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by webist
Whether as a pedestrian, a cyclist or a motorist, "defensive" is my modus operandi
Do you believe that motor vehicle drivers are constantly in defensive mode?
How about walkers on trails or cyclists on isolated (not multiuse) paths?
05-31-05, 11:44 AM
#66
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Gene, given that motorcyclists are about as unlikely to be seen as are bicyclists in a left hook situation, it should be no surprise that motorcyclists are in more danger since they are typically traveling faster.
Agreed, but is the blame due to excessive speed, as was suggested by CBHI, or is it possible that the motorcyclist smaller cross section is sometimes overlooked by motorists that only see 4 wheeled box type vehicles?
05-31-05, 11:57 AM
#67
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Gene,
You wrote: "VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is." (post #56)
So I wrote: "Gene, do you know of any VC advocates who preach that VC is always taking the lane, ..." (post #59)
Then you wrote: "however that is not what I said. ... I did say that it does not mean always taking the middle of the lane..." (#63)
When you used the term preach with respect to claims made that "VC is always taking the lane", to whom were you referring, if not VC advocates?
No connection, except that the anti-bike lane movement is dominated by vehicular cycling advocates. Gee, I wonder why. LOL!
Are you claiming that bicyclists in CA have the same right to use the entire roadway as do, say, moped riders (who are allowed but never required to use bike lanes)?
Serge
You wrote: "VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is." (post #56)
So I wrote: "Gene, do you know of any VC advocates who preach that VC is always taking the lane, ..." (post #59)
Then you wrote: "however that is not what I said. ... I did say that it does not mean always taking the middle of the lane..." (#63)
When you used the term preach with respect to claims made that "VC is always taking the lane", to whom were you referring, if not VC advocates?
Originally Posted by genec
The reality is that there is no connection between VC and the desire to abolish Bike Lanes..
There are however, misheld perceptions that Bike Lanes reduce the rights of cyclists to use the entire roadway...
Serge
05-31-05, 11:58 AM
#68
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
In other (shorter) words, VC means cycling in accordance to the vehicular rules of the road.
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by VC in the poll, and that's a common misunderstanding, but that's certainly not how it is normally defined.
VC does not mean "riding as a car". VC does not stand for "Car Cycling", it stands for Vehicular Cycling. There are many types of vehicles other than cars that have the right to travel on our roadways, and must obey the same vehicular rules of the road. From horse and buggy to tractor trailers, it's all vehicles. Same rules. Same rights. Same roads. VC is about riding in accordance to the same rules that every other vehicle driver does.
This is from the Wikipedia entry on "Vehicular Cycling" (which I wrote):
Misconceptions About VC
There is considerable confusion expressed on the internet about the meaning of vehicular cycling. Some people mistakenly describe VC as, "cycling as if you're a car". But bicycles are not cars, and the vehicular rules of the road apply to not just cars, but all kinds of vehicles, from horse and buggies to tractor trailers, and everything in between, including bicycles. Some rules have more relevance to drivers of some vehicles than to others because of unique physical and operational characteristics of some vehicles. For example, because of the narrow nature of motorcycles, motorcyclists can often share (split) lanes that are too narrow for two standard width vehicles to share. This is also true for bicyclists, whose vehicles also have the narrow characteristic. Truck drivers require special training, as do bus and taxi drivers, and motorcyclists. Some people advocate special training for cyclists to learn vehicular cycling, such as the Effective Cycling program. One of the main vehicular rules that has special application to cyclists riding on roadways is that drivers of slower vehicles should keep to the side (when safe and reasonable) between intersections, though many people forget that at intersections and their approaches lane position should be selected according to destination. Cyclists who ride in the center of a lane needlessly impeding faster traffic are sometimes mistakenly referred to as vehicular cyclists; yet by definition a cyclist who needlessly impedes faster traffic is violating the vehicular rules of the road and is hence not riding vehicularly. Another misconception about VC -- that riding in bike lanes is non-vehicular -- probably stems from Forester's opposition to bike lanes. But Forester himself has written and said countless times that riding vehicularly often involves riding in bike lanes, when the bike lane happens to coincide with the appropriate place to cycle for the given factors and conditions. So VC does not require staying out of bike lanes all the time.
Serge
05-31-05, 12:08 PM
#69
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If you don't associate VC with riding in the middle of the lane with cars, then VC, in your definition genec, is just another word for commuting or cycling. I can say I commute to work on my bike, and this could mean I ride on the sidewalk, in bike lanes, or in the middle of lanes. If you need the term to be clearer, how about we use VMC now, vehicular motor cycling?
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
05-31-05, 12:14 PM
#70
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Gene,
You wrote: "VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is." (post #56)
So I wrote: "Gene, do you know of any VC advocates who preach that VC is always taking the lane, ..." (post #59)
Then you wrote: "however that is not what I said. ... I did say that it does not mean always taking the middle of the lane..." (#63)
When you used the term preach with respect to claims made that "VC is always taking the lane", to whom were you referring, if not VC advocates?
You wrote: "VC is NOT always taking a lane, but some seem to preach that it is." (post #56)
So I wrote: "Gene, do you know of any VC advocates who preach that VC is always taking the lane, ..." (post #59)
Then you wrote: "however that is not what I said. ... I did say that it does not mean always taking the middle of the lane..." (#63)
When you used the term preach with respect to claims made that "VC is always taking the lane", to whom were you referring, if not VC advocates?
No connection, except that the anti-bike lane movement is dominated by vehicular cycling advocates. Gee, I wonder why. LOL!
Are you claiming that bicyclists in CA have the same right to use the entire roadway as do, say, moped riders (who are allowed but never required to use bike lanes)?
Serge
Can you tell me a reason not to use a bike lane, other than what I mentioned? (hazards, intersections, turns, and speed)
Can you tell me a reason not to be on the right side of the road (not in the gutter, but about 3-4 feet from the right of the edge of the road... ) except for the reasons I mentioned? (hazards, intersections, turns, and speed)
05-31-05, 12:14 PM
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 1,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How about "Yes: except under very exceptional circumstances, about 99% of the time". Had to answer "Other" because I cannot go with the VC purist response.
05-31-05, 12:18 PM
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 1,254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by powertoold
I think you misunderstood my intentions for this poll Genec. The poll options hint at what I mean. When I say VC, I mean riding as a car, in the middle of the lane. Sure, we usually ride on the right lane, but we don't need any other lanes. Bike lanes separate cyclists from cars; therefore, you are not riding as a car.
05-31-05, 12:23 PM
#73
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by powertoold
If you don't associate VC with riding in the middle of the lane with cars, then VC, in your definition genec, is just another word for commuting or cycling. I can say I commute to work on my bike, and this could mean I ride on the sidewalk, in bike lanes, or in the middle of lanes. If you need the term to be clearer, how about we use VMC now, vehicular motor cycling?
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
Where I ride does not preclude other vehicles ability to share the same lane, where possible. However, they do not have the right to cut me off and must make sure that they have the clear ability to safely pass me... this is done by either that vehicle taking part of my lane and the lane to the left (as is often done) or by that vehicle simply moving to the lane to the left.
I ride as a motorcyclist would... and in the manner I ride, another cycliest or motorcyclist could easily share my lane... this is not possible if I were riding in the MIDDLE of the lane.
In the rare case of a very narrow lane, I would probably ride closer to the middle to preclude any vehicles passing me. I also often ride in the left tire track in order to set up for a left turn. Again, I rarely ride in the middle.
05-31-05, 12:38 PM
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Riding on the right tire track sounds good. Have cars ever tried to squeeze by you even when there are cars to the left though?
Where I ride, there are poor excuses for bike lanes. Excluding the gutter, which is about 1 foot across, the bike lane is only 2 feet across, so I basically have to ride in the lane.
Where I ride, there are poor excuses for bike lanes. Excluding the gutter, which is about 1 foot across, the bike lane is only 2 feet across, so I basically have to ride in the lane.
05-31-05, 12:57 PM
#75
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by powertoold
If you don't associate VC with riding in the middle of the lane with cars, then VC, in your definition genec, is just another word for commuting or cycling. I can say I commute to work on my bike, and this could mean I ride on the sidewalk, in bike lanes, or in the middle of lanes. If you need the term to be clearer, how about we use VMC now, vehicular motor cycling?
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
Edit: sorry, I am just using VC in this thread for my benefit. I want to know how many people ride with cars in the middle of the lane, all the time. Ok, with the exception of turning right and hitting the bike lane and such.
Originally Posted by genec
However, VC does not mean NOT riding in bike lanes, there is no exclusion of bike lanes in the VC method.
There is in John Forester's mind...
John Forester, nor any other VC advocate that I know of, including the staunchest of the anti-BLers (Forester is a moderate in the anti-BL world, believe it or not), holds that VC means not riding in bike lanes. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, please stop spreading this falsehood.
Originally Posted by genec
Sounds like [powertoold] is preaching the use of the whole lane "in accordance with VC." (which it is not!)
Originally Posted by genec
and that falsehood has simply been promalgated by some VC advocates.
Originally Posted by genec
Can you tell me a reason not to use a bike lane, other than what I mentioned? (hazards, intersections, turns, and speed)
For the record, when I say the "center" or "middle" of a lane, I mean somewhere between the left and right track of where cars generally drive in the given lane. Differentiating between the exact center, and the right tire track, is hardly relevant to the issue of whether you are using the full lane or not. Using the full lane means you're in a position that precludes cars in particular from being able to fully fit into the lane next to you. Other bicyclists or even motorcyclists may still be able to fit even though you are "using the full lane".
Serge