HiYoSilver

Stumbled across this article today. One of the clearest descriptions of the cyclist with an interesting breakout between different types of cyclists.

https://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...cyclinguse.htm

Cromulent

Wow... great article. That pretty much says it all. We can now close the A&S forum.

Just kidding.

noisebeam

Lots of good stuff in there.

I was talking with wife a few night ago and really came to realize one of the most important facilities (for where I live with 115deg summers) are lockers and showers. I can say with near certainty that in the summer I would not commute otherwise.

I've read about pre-showers, wipes, washcloths but these don't cut it in the summer for all but the shortest commutes.

I went to the Dr. on Monday just after lunch, a mere 3.5mi ride each way, but it was 109deg. I took it much easier than my commute, I decided not to shower afterward, but wiped down, and I was pouring sweat, soaking clothes and sticky and nasty for the rest of the day. The body heats up so much from an easy 20min on the road that even after wipe down one is still red and sweaty for at least 30min afterward.

I don't think it is reasonable to ask anyone in this climate to commute in summer unless they have showers available.

Al

barenakedbiker

That's Steve in North Carolina. He has written many great cycling articles. But, sometimes, he's totally off his rocker. He needs to get a grip on reality. Check out his inane comments about dealing with the police.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=131462&page=2

'nother

Something that made me wonder a bit was the table on accident rates for different types of cyclists. It claims 1,500 miles per accident for Children; 2,000 miles for College-educated Adults; and 10,000 for Club Cyclists.

I am inclined to infer that joining a club is a pretty effective way (more effective than merely being college-educated) to avoid accidents.

What is the rate for VCists (and why isn't there an entry for that in the table)?

noisebeam

I kinda assumed 'club rider' was a cover all for experienced riders. I have personally found 'experienced commuters' to be far safer and better traffic riders than 'experienced club riders' who get used to the group mentality and don't need to worry about being visible, strictly following laws and know that vehicles will avoid the group as they dominate the road.

Al

Marylandnewbie

'Nother -- I thought the same thing about that table, but then I looked carefully and realized it actually says "college associated adults". I think that means college students who are no longer children but not quite mature adults. But I think you are right about the effectiveness of cycling clubs. Clubs probably work to ingrain good habits and riding in large groups probably protects riders by making them more obvious to drivers.

'nother

I guess that gets to part of the problem I have with those stats . . . there is no definition of what a "club cyclist" is. Assuming it's a cover-all for experienced riders seems dubious to me, especially since he goes on to detail Bad Things That Club Riders Do. And obviously not all experienced riders belong to a club, and not all club members are experienced riders.

'nother

Then it seems some groups are not represented at all in the chart...? What about mature adults who do not belong to cycling clubs? Or Children who belong to cycling clubs? It just struck me as an odd (and incomplete) breakdown of groups.

Though I do not disagree about the club aspect: I think many clubs do at least implicity ingrain good, safe riding habits. But I think many VC purists would object to some of their practices.

noisebeam

This I disagree with. If anything, unless the leader contantly and very effectively makes and enforces rules and has support of other riders being good examples and correcting bad behavior - all of which can make for a very tedious club. Of the three very friendly clubs I've ridden with (ranging from 10-100 riders) there are rules, but everyone as a group starts to break one, then more. Even club riders on these forums will tell you that you are expected to run red light, go thru stop signs, etc. as it is (arguably correct) safer for the group. Club rides also always seem to ride in right turn lanes when going straight , not timing left merges well, and sometimes the paceline end up hugging the curb to close when it should be further into the road, sometimes the oppossite happens. I can't tell you how many times the line has gone to the right of stopped cars with their right turn signals on. Twice I was pulling in front, came up to a short line of cars, stopped behind last car, one or two other guys stopped with me and rest of group squeezed to my and the cars right to go to front, making the right turning cars wait for 30 other rider to pass. Club rule is to stay in line when stopped and not bunch, does anyone do that?
This is very true and the most likely reason club riders are at lowest risk of accident.

Note: I am moaning about club rides not being VC and even breaking their own rules, etc. But I accept this and enjoy and don't fight it while out riding with clubs, its all about fun for me and most members are great folks meaning not harm and just having fun like me. I feel by far the safest riding with these clubs vs. alone in spite of these relatively minor lapses in good riding behavior, but that is because of the group protection provided. I only point it out as I disagree that club riding ingrains good cycling behavior, or at least good behavior that would translate to riding alone.
Al

Keith99

Here are the top 10 causes of accidents for teens from the article:

Wrong-way cyclist hit by motorist restarting from stop sign
Cyclist turning left from curb lane
Cyclist exiting commercial driveway
Wrong-way cyclist running stop sign
Wrong-way cyclist head-on
Right-of-way error at uncontrolled intersection
Motorist entering commercial driveway
Cyclist running red light
Cyclist turning left from curb lane, hitting car coming from opposite direction
Wrong-way cyclist hit by motorist turning right on red

4 out of 10 involve wrong way riding! Some others are pretty stupid too.

I think the per mile can be a bit misleading. Several things combine to make it look like club riders are safer riders than they really are (as a causal thing, as a group). many clubs concentrate their rides on weekends and look for nice places to ride, those places are usually safer (who finds it fun to ride in really nasty traffic). Club riders often ride in fair sized groups. This often means a stupid mistake does not result in an accident as drivers are alerted to there being bicyclists and are more apt to react in time. Finally the best riders ride the most miles. This is NOT to say that club riding is not a good thing. I think it does create better riders overall, but the numbers might be a bit better than the reallity of how much safer club riders are under comprable conditions.

I'd also point out that children are often much slower riders, the 1500 vrs 2000 for kids vrs college associated adults may actually mean that kids are really better riders. (Of course tilting things the other direction is the fact that the adults in question may well be riding in a more dangerous situation. Anyone seen what traffic is like near many college campuses during their rush hour?)

Paul L.

I actually did this last summer. Couple of key things were necessary-

1- Make sure that all undergarments are not cotton so they continue to wick after you have stopped excersizing (cotton gets really stinky).
2- Shower really good before riding in to eliminate odor causing bacteria.
3- No meetings right after you get in as it takes a bit to cool down and dry up, better if noone is around while you are sitting there with little beads of sweat on your forehead .
4- Paper towels are awesome for drying extra sweat out of the hair.
5- Try to get in before 8:30 or so to avoid the worst heat, afternoon sweating isn't as much of an issue.

Anyway, My commute was 19 miles one way and I was going both ways most of the summer every day. Some days were pretty excruciating heading home but mostly it was very doable for me. Of course if I was an executive things might be different but being a programmer I most often sit off to the side in a cubicle and don't meet with people that much.

This summer I have had the luxury of a shower. Wonderful to hit that cold shower on a hot morning.

BenyBen

Noisebeam, I've commuted to work in such temperatures a couple times and did fine. I don't mean to tell you that you have it wrong, simply that it can work for some. I think clothing has a lot to do with it. I:

-take a pre-shower
-use fast drying wicking frabric, that doesn't feel sticky when humid/wet
-Get into work and rest some time to dry up (AC'ed office helps a whole lot) a bit before changing . <--- IMPORTANT
-Use deodorant and wipes if necessary, then change into work clothes

Pat

I believe those statistics come from Forester. Forester broke cyclists into four groups: kid cyclists, college cyclists, club cyclists and commuters. The kid cyclists were children operating like pedestrians, the college cyclists are a mix but mainly operating as pedestrians, the club cyclists are your recreational, weekend cyclists and the commuters. Obviously, Forester's categories are a bit crude but I think he used them because he could collect accident data and make estimates of travel for these groups. Sometimes in research, you take the data you can get even if it isn't exactly what you want.

Forester believed that commuters had the lowest accident rates by far but his population of commuters was small enough and their accident rate was so low that Forester was unable to estimate the accident rate accurately so he did not include an estimate.

Pat

Well, I beg to disagree. The accident per mile was for medical treatment and often was for relatively minor injuries like road rash, mild concussions etc. Club cyclists suffer a fair number of accidents as a consequence of paceline riding.

One nice way to define a "serious accident" is to look at fatalities. You can find fatalities broken down by time of day and day of the week. Now I would submit that club cyclists account for a very large fraction if not the majority of miles ridden in the USA. Club cyclists ride almost exclusively on Saturday and Sunday mornings. If club cyclists had fatality rates similar to other cyclists, one would expect to see a larger number of bicycle fatalities reported on Saturday and Sunday than on the week days. You don't see that. Club cyclists seem to have extremely low fatality rates. That does make sense. I have belonged to clubs and none many club members and one very seldom if ever hears of club cyclists suffering fatalities. However the local non club cyclists get killed relatively frequently.

That said, I have seen club cyclist do some stupid and scary things. So if they are the "good" riders imagine what the "bad" riders are like?

webist

Good paper.

noisebeam

I did not say it was not possible, only that it is not reasonable to expect folks to do so. I think in these parts lack of shower type facilities is an impedement to getting into cycle commuting during the summer months. I've come to think that having showers available are at least important as WOL or BLs to getting more folks here to cycle commute.

I very often have 8am meetings and often have to wear long pants and decent shirt. After a 30min ride in 80+deg weather at 6:30am that can be yucky. Again, I have tried and know the techniques, its just not pleasant and a very good and reasonable excuse not to cycle commute, in my opinion more reasonable than the excuse of traffic and the extra time it takes.

For the ride home, no problem, plenty of cool down time is available as are showers. I actually derive a certain pleasure of riding in 118deg into a stiff headwind that feels like its coming from paint stripper gun. But that pleasure requires the knowledge of a shower at home.

Al

noisebeam

Of course one can do fine, but it can take a real dedication, not something that welcomes new bike commuters. I've done it before when showers did not work. It was bad. I was even suggested to leave an 8am meeting because I was dripping, even though I had arrived at 7:30am. Even normally when its over 80deg at 6:30 in the morning, I get to work at 7, shower and am at my desk by 7:30 and am still sweating and bright red.

Al

sggoodri

Yes, that's me.

By day I'm employed as an electrical engineer for a firm that develops technology for the law enforcement community; I have a Ph.D. and a security clearance. My professional life has nothing to do with cycling.

I serve as Advocacy Officer for the North Carolina Bicycle Club based in Raleigh. I volunteer monthly on the Capitol Area Metropolitan Planning Organization (CAMPO) Bicycle/Pedestrian Stakeholders Group, and I am also a member of the Cary, NC planning and zoning board. I work a lot with transportation planners and civil engineers on issues of interest to cyclists. I've started to learn their language and how to communicate with them, which has made me more effective at influencing policy. I'm sure a few of the local planners think that I am off my rocker, but it has not interfered with my results. It's hard to argue credibility with the guy who shows up at meetings on a bike and talks like an engineer.

I got interested in advocacy for cyclists after spending my college years commuting by bike for economic reasons. I love cycling, mostly road cycling, and I want to improve conditions for cyclists. I frequently bike commute to work across town, and frequently pull my 2-year-old son in a trailer to go downtown for ice cream on weekends.

My biggest accomplishment so far, I think, is getting Cary NC to repeal its ordinance requiring cyclists to ride on any "usable path" next to a road instead of the roadway. I have also ensured that, as a matter of city policy, 2-way sidewalk-type bike paths will not be built as substitutes for wide outside lanes, as was once attempted. My current project is assisting CAMPO with creating county-wide planning guidelines for bicycle-specific engineering improvements such as wide outside lanes, intersection signalization, off-road paths, etc.

-Steve Goodridge

Santaria

Steve,

First of all, well written abstract. I could see the college education involved in it.

All battling aside, it did its job, which was to summarize a plethora of statistical information for consumption by a non-scientific based group - my assumption is city planners and other Pols.

As far as the summer riding hijack:

I've walked, ran and cycled to work (I still do for variety) and can say that when the temp. breaks 85+ with any humidity at all you will be wet.

Walking 3 miles to work (approx. time 45 mins. at 5 mphs) I was soaked in 90 degree temperatures. It took me about an hour to dry off, and I got two ear infections out of it; while running, I was able to cut down the time exposed to the temps. to 26 minutes - changing clothes means I am able to remove that moisture and the subsequent issues involved with it. Planly, just by walking I feel like **** all day because my clothing is itchy, etc. When I run, or cycle, I may exert myself more, but even bird bathing offers me a clean feeling and fresh clothing (even if I perspire for another 30 mins. afterwards) its superior to the alternatives. The problem, as pointed out in the Steve's abstract is this:

The average person doesn't connect exercise with work, let alone commuting with anything less than a vehicle; therefore it is a stretch for them to accept anything short of perfect hair, clothing and the fresh smell of cologne (normally too much at that).

noisebeam

Why is it a hijack when Steve's (excellent) article posted for discussion specifically discusses shower facilities and 'bird showers' in section 3.3?

OK, I be blunt here... I don't care about my hair, having pressed clothes, or enhancing my smell, but I do care about itchy/sticky skin, specifically in areas that don't get much ventillation. If I don't shower (after excercise, and a bird shower ain't enough) and dry off I often develop 'unpleasantness' and am certain I have nothing that needs treatment.

Al

sggoodri

Lucky for me, I have a shower at work downstairs. They are even building a second one on my floor as part of our office expansion.

Sometimes I do shower before work and just towel off when I arrive. Showering first does seem to prevent the stink. But I do feel a little less clean.

In the North Carolina Summer I am usually a sweaty mess when I get home after biking from work. Even my two-year-old tells me to go take a shower. It makes it hard to jump into family activity when I arrive. But I still love it.

-Steve

Santaria

I refer to it as a hijack simply because its in the advocacy and safety forum; Other than that, I'm absent minded and missed it (don't tell anybody). Unless that 'unpleasantness' is somehow a safety concern

noisebeam

I am so sweaty it is crazy - during the 115 dry air commute home I have zero sweat on my skin while riding. When I get home and stop the breeze I start to drip everwhere to the point it upsets my wife. I also have this desire to sit down, but can't find anywhere to do it, have to wait at least 20min to shower, otherwise I step out of the cold shower still sweating profusely. So I stand around dripping, or take an old towel from the laundry and lay it over a chair to sit on, but won't use a new one as that seems wasteful, so I end up standing around for 20min at least while cooling off.

OK, this particular side track I admit is approaches hijack

Al

noisebeam

Advocacy for me also includes advocating for more folks to cycle commute, which makes cycling more accepted by the general public. I think in many regions where mornings are hot and/or humid enough to cause significant sweating during moderate exercise, lack of showers is equal or even more of an impediment than lack of so called 'bike facilities' such as bike lanes.

Al