Well, using that method, eons.

But consider that motorists understand that pedestrians have the right of way. (although some moron motorists do hit pedestrians too... obviously these "elephants" have yet to learn).

So it is not too much of a stretch to expect motorists to learn that cyclists have rights too. The big problem of course is that these rights have not been well presented to the motorists. That and the fact that most of these laws went into effect in the 70's, and without a lot of fan fare. So as far as the motorists are concerned, they assume that cyclists must ride in the manner that they the motorists were taught when they were young. "Stay outta the way of the cars... better ride on the sidewalks... " (the seeds of The Notion)

So the best plan is a massive "retrain the nation" campaign. It could work... heck Sweden learned how to go from a left driving nation to a right driving nation almost over night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_hand_drive#Sweden

All it takes is getting the message out and enforcing it.

We keep dancing around training one motorist at a time... that is not going to work. We need a government sponsored campaign to inform motorists that: hey those gas saving bicycles are our only salvation from our addiction to oil... and they might even help us "chunky" Americans shed a few pounds.

So by golly, motorists... be aware of bikes and their human drivers and dammit, give 'em some road... all they want.

It exists in your area. Doesn't exist at mine (cars do stop at crosswalks). So it's not about the basic instincts and human nature, for those do not depend on the area.

Al, they don't stopped at marked crosswalks, unmarked crosswalks, or both?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. With one little change: there is more than one "nation" that could benefit from this.


Again, +1. It can work for a specific person in a specific situation (just your riding in a certain manner may be educational to a motorist and might thus help your interaction with him), but in the grand scheme of things it'll change nothing. Or, actually, if EVERY cyclist just suddenly started to ride properly and educate motorists "one at a time", that might just about eliminate The Notion (or at least make a very large proportion of motorists question its validity). But that requires educating all cyclists which, well, is just as difficult as educating all motorists...

Actually more difficult... cyclists are not controlled by state agencies... there is no report structure, no central database by state, and no requirement for even a first visit for a license.

Trying to round up all cyclists would make herding cats look easy.

On the other hand, it's the cyclists who want things to change, so should be more interested in this sort of "retraining". Moreover, I think educating cyclists is still necessary. Because no matter how hard you try to tell the motorists that cyclists belong on the road, if the motorists see 9 out of 10 cyclists on the sidewalk - they aren't going to believe you.

At any rate, there is no doubt that if the campaign is to happen, it must be geared to retraining both groups if it is to be successful.

This is exactly why I keep saying that training motorists, who have little to be interested in whether or not The Notion is true, is a complete waste of time and resources, especially when you have 99 out of 100 (or is it 9,999 out of 10,000?) cyclists behaving as if the Notion is true, not to mention the little matter of The Notion being embedded in our laws (which, thankfully, hardly anyone reads), and in official policy manifested in demarcating the outside edge of the roadway for bikes.

OK truth be told, you are right...

That is why the best approach would be a massive all nation multimedia campaign.

The problem with trying to train cyclists is that many of them don't know they are doing it wrong. Your typical sidewalk rider or wrong way rider is only doing it the way that they were taught so long ago by parents.

The only way to get everyone on the same page is by syncronizing the training to everyone at the same time.

Prior to that a campaign could be done to try to reign in the cyclists first... then start with an information campaign aimed at the motorists, then wrap it up with a general message to all road users. Law enforcement also should be pre trained... so they can get used to the concept up front.

This will have to be done in a manner similar to the polio innoculation campaigns back in the '50s and '60s. It has to happen all at once or it won't work. The current situation with gas prices is a good catalyst for a campaign like this... some folks will consider cycling as a natural alternative to driving... encouraging this natural progression just makes sense.

the best answer I can give is...sometimes

You can call it that all you want, but your 'notion' is only one symptom of the greater root cause - people are in too much of a hurry, can't stand anything that gets in their way or slows them down and lack good manners. You wanna see hostility? Ride around in a buggy like the Amish do.

You can treat symptoms if you want to feel good, but to fix anything you gotta tackle the root cause.

Thanks but no thanks, HH. I do not want to be your charity case.

Because I live in a place like Bek and have first hand knowledge of how good it is, there's no way I'm jumping on your bandwagon.

Never at unmarked crosswalks across multilane arterials. Even when I assertively bordering on aggresively try to get cars to stop.
Very rarely on marked crosswalks across multilane arterials. I cycle across two of them and always stop for peds who are trying to cross. 10s of cars continue on, even if I am in center of rightmost lane.
Here is a recent news article. While sun may have been a factor here, you can't discount the neighbors comments:

Family hit by car in Phoenix crosswalk

10:43 AM Mountain Standard Time on Wednesday, April 12, 2006
3TV and azfamily.com Staff
A man, his wife and their 3-year-old daughter are recovering this morning after being hit by a car.
It happened at about 7 p.m. yesterday near the intersection of 20th Avenue and Indian School Road in Phoenix.
According to police, the family was crossing the street in a crosswalk when the driver of a white Honda heading west in Indian School Road hit the family.
The driver reportedly told police that the sun was in his eyes and he didn't see the family.
Even though there is a crosswalk there, neighbors said cars don't stop very often for pedestrians.
"I live just across the way and having to go across the crosswalk, they (drivers) don't stop," said one neighbor. "The crosswalk doesn't mean anything. I have to wait until there are no cars."
All three victims were rushed to Valley hospitals.
The father and daughter suffered minor injuries. The mother reportedly broke her leg and at last check was listed in serious condition."

If Randy reads this, chime in on if cars stop in mid-block marked, but not signal controlled x-walks on arterials.

The city is looking at installing these, of course they improve safety even if drivers stopped anyway, but there is also the motivation for them simply to get drivers to stop :
"Tempe weighs using special crosswalk light

Katie Nelson
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 31, 2006 12:00 AM

TEMPE - Tempe may become the third city in the country to use a special stoplight designed to keep pedestrians from getting hit as they cross a street. "

Again the roadway design with multilane (5-7 lanes) 45mph arterials is does not make it 'easy' for motorist to see a x-walk is there (they do have a yellow sign too) and notice if a ped is waiting until it is too late to stop quickly. Add to this that there are so few peds in the suburban area (outside of city core area) that more often than not one does not need to stop.

It is not that people here are less concerned about peds, it is that the infrastructure makes it harder to see and respond.

Al

The city as taken to putting up these plastic signs in the street almost in the line of traffic that say State Law Pedestrian Crossing or something like that and it seems to help.

Totally agreed, the point I was making. I also full agree that for it to work more cyclists need to ride on the road as well (which should be part of the campaign), but I don't think that cyclist alone doing this will help, unless actually 9/10 do it, but right now at best 1/10 do, so if double the number of cyclist took to the streets it would be a blip of difference to motorist eyes.

Today on the 8mi ride home I counted 31 cyclists on the sidewalk (18 of them on sidewalk adjacent to a BL) and one on the road in a BL, two counting me.

Al

If Randy reads this, chime in on if cars stop in mid-block marked, but not signal controlled x-walks on arterials.

nope. they don't. not in my experience, unless there is someone actually in the road.

Again the roadway design with multilane (5-7 lanes) 45mph arterials is does not make it 'easy' for motorist to see a x-walk is there (they do have a yellow sign too) and notice if a ped is waiting until it is too late to stop quickly. Add to this that there are so few peds in the suburban area (outside of city core area) that more often than not one does not need to stop.

It is not that people here are less concerned about peds, it is that the infrastructure makes it harder to see and respond.

I agree.

No, SOME people are that way, and that IS a problem but it's completely separate from the problem of The Notion. The trouble here is that many motorists THINK THAT CYCLISTS LACK GOOD MANNERS because they ride where "they ain't supposed to" (the road). I don't see why you can't see the difference between these separate problems.

Suppose you are a driving and see a little old lady walking on the road with a cane at 1.5 mph taking up a lane. If you are a mean a*hole without manners you will blast your horn and yell obscenities at her as you pass her. If you are a nice polite fellow you will say to her in a friendly but firm and concerned tone that she should move to the sidewalk for her own safety. Either way though, you're telling her to get off the road. Now, that's how drivers treat cyclists: mean *****s and nice guys, people in too much hurry and people in no hurry at all - they all feel we do not belong on the road, and that is the problem called The Notion. I can't believe that anybody who cycled in North America for more than half an hour can deny its existence.

Well, I agree that if a motorist is "in so much of a hurry he can't stand anything that gets in his way", then you will not succeed in teaching him to yield to bikes when the law and common sense require it. But I also state that getting rid of this attitude isn't enough to fix the problem (the motorist will learn to accept reasonable delays but will still believe all bike-related delays are unreasonable), and in many cases there is no need to get rid of this attitude because it's not there.

Two. Different. Problems.

Nice try, chephy. While reason and logic will work with Al, me, Gene (but it takes a while ) and a few other others around here, with guys like chipcom, it's a waste of time. I predict he will keep repeating his nonsense without addressing your points, as if you never made them.

I'm hoping I'm wrong in this one case, but I'm not holding my breath.

Every winter when we have a big snow something like this happens (but not always little old ladies). Snow plows clear the road and if a foot or more of snow has fallen, they push all the snow up on the sidewalk. Does anybody clear the sidewalk? Maybe in a week if it's not to cold. Yet, people who ride the bus need to get to work and often must walk several blocks from the bus stop. Since there is 2' of plowed snow impacted over top of the foot of snow the fell on the snow, these folks naturally walk in the roadway. Do you think motorist would figure this out and give a little room??? NO WAY!!! In fact, during one snow storm a radio disc jockey actually admonished folks on the air for walking in the street! I could not believe it! I guess people were just supposed to levitate from the bus stop to their place of employment.

Al and Gene: doesn't that endorsement make you feel proud of yourselves for playing footsie for so long with your comrade?

At least I've earned the "Gang of Geniuses" label and don't have to endure any snarky pseudo-praise.

I'm surprised Roody isn't crying about being left out of the Head(case) Hall of F(Sh)ame. After all he is the Head's most loyal lap dog.

I'm still firmly behind the "notions" of New Urbanism and the design of livable communities. The Dutch, have a "Notion" called Woonerfs, that resulted from citizens quite literally reclaiming the streets.

Care to elaborate on New Urbanism and the Dutch reclamation of livable space via the "Woonerfs" movement, Mr HEAD?

Bottom Line on Notions, shared by my wife and me; paraphrased from Mr. James Brown;
I (we) don't care about the motion of the ocean;
Just be there when I get a notion.

The rest of the stuff about "notions" on this thread is a load of stuff conjured up by some very bored people.

I apologize for any "Notions" I hold about the desire for a return to more livable communities within a framework of New Urbanism. Codifying a pro bike stance in roadway accomodations and public space. I expect no less from the changing american landscape.


One of the Woonerfs "Notions" is that a street is valuable public resource and should be shared by all users.

I never thought of you as part of the Gang, Diane. While you have your moments (hey, who doesn't?) for the most part you're quite rational and reasonable, though we often disagree.

To be in the Gang, you have to repeatedly spew disconnected nonsense in most of your posts; that's not you.

I-like-to-bike, you may know of these notions I advance more as Wohnstrassen; using Verkehrsberuhigung, 'Tempo', and other similar constructs.