Your tax dollars at work
03-17-08, 02:55 PM
#101
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In the first post San Rensho writes:
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway
Then on page 4 he writes:
To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders.
I believe someone is making things up and I will need to add schizophrenic to my evaluation of paranoid conspiracy theorist.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway
Then on page 4 he writes:
To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders.
I believe someone is making things up and I will need to add schizophrenic to my evaluation of paranoid conspiracy theorist.
03-17-08, 03:56 PM
#103
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You're as right as you can be with hyperbole on your second point. It's pretty obvious that the sun rose today, and it's also pretty obvious that the cops showed up because they got complaints about 50-100 cyclists running red lights twice a week, same bat time, same bat channel. When you tell me they sent three squad cars because some guy was riding a bike, you're right, I don't believe it.
03-17-08, 06:34 PM
#104
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Thread Starter
In the first post San Rensho writes:
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway
Then on page 4 he writes:
To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders.
I believe someone is making things up and I will need to add schizophrenic to my evaluation of paranoid conspiracy theorist.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway
Then on page 4 he writes:
To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders.
I believe someone is making things up and I will need to add schizophrenic to my evaluation of paranoid conspiracy theorist.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
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1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-17-08, 09:55 PM
#105
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[QUOTE=San Rensho;6356701]Easy. Not guilty. The state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that I committed the infraction. To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders, some of whom crossed an intersection on a yellow light, some on a red, while he was stopped at the side of the road.
I thought this was in the morning tying up rush hour traffic. So a large number of bikes ran a red [B]In the dark no less[B]?/B] That's a pretty safe thing to do.
And that is what I expect my tax dollars to do. Public servants responding to complaints of the taxpayers.
I thought this was in the morning tying up rush hour traffic. So a large number of bikes ran a red [B]In the dark no less[B]?/B] That's a pretty safe thing to do.
And that is what I expect my tax dollars to do. Public servants responding to complaints of the taxpayers.
03-17-08, 10:15 PM
#106
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SR -
Thanks for the response. Just to play a small amount of devil's advocate here - you are requesting the PO's presence at the hearing. You plead not guilty, and the PO shows up. You ask him how he knows you ran the red light; let's say he answers that he knows that you ran it since they only pulled over the 2nd half of the pack (inferring from your OP that that was where you were), and since only the first few riders made it through on the yellow therefore you ran the light and were properly cited.
That really would not be perjury, since that may be what they did. The judge may accept this argument, largely on the same basis used when traffic enforcement pulls over multiple cars for speeding (may not have individual radar readings...)
My only concern here, from reading a brief overview of FL traffic courts, is that you waive the right to pay the original fine by contesting the ticket and the judge is allowed to impose a civil fine of up to $500 plus points. If the situation is as you describe that cyclists are targeted in this area, the concern would be running into a traffic clerk or judge that has a bone to pick with light-running cyclists and the original fine increased.
Just a thought. Good luck with your hearing.
Thanks for the response. Just to play a small amount of devil's advocate here - you are requesting the PO's presence at the hearing. You plead not guilty, and the PO shows up. You ask him how he knows you ran the red light; let's say he answers that he knows that you ran it since they only pulled over the 2nd half of the pack (inferring from your OP that that was where you were), and since only the first few riders made it through on the yellow therefore you ran the light and were properly cited.
That really would not be perjury, since that may be what they did. The judge may accept this argument, largely on the same basis used when traffic enforcement pulls over multiple cars for speeding (may not have individual radar readings...)
My only concern here, from reading a brief overview of FL traffic courts, is that you waive the right to pay the original fine by contesting the ticket and the judge is allowed to impose a civil fine of up to $500 plus points. If the situation is as you describe that cyclists are targeted in this area, the concern would be running into a traffic clerk or judge that has a bone to pick with light-running cyclists and the original fine increased.
Just a thought. Good luck with your hearing.
03-18-08, 05:29 PM
#107
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Where are you seeing that Blue? I've been looking at Florida traffic law, and a red light violation is a non-criminal violation. See paragraph 6 here:
https://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/ind...316/Sec074.HTM
Normally in civil cases the standard of proof is preponderence of the evidence. Does Florida do it differently?
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03-18-08, 06:12 PM
#108
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Where are you seeing that Blue? I've been looking at Florida traffic law, and a red light violation is a non-criminal violation. See paragraph 6 here:
https://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/ind...316/Sec074.HTM
Normally in civil cases the standard of proof is preponderence of the evidence. Does Florida do it differently?
https://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/ind...316/Sec074.HTM
Normally in civil cases the standard of proof is preponderence of the evidence. Does Florida do it differently?
03-18-08, 08:14 PM
#109
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I believe the San Rensho case requires special dispensation and the threshold should be lowered to "preponderance of innuendo" and then sentence him to monitor the traffic signal.
Last edited by DM4; 03-18-08 at 08:38 PM.
03-18-08, 08:50 PM
#110
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Yes, Florida decriminalized their traffic code, but specified that the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt." See Section 318.14, subsection 6 of the Florida Motor Vehicles Code. I'm as surprised at that as you are, because as far as I'm aware, the standard of proof for decriminalized traffic offenses is typically the lower "preponderance of the evidence" standard.
03-18-08, 08:59 PM
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Florida has about 1.2 cars per licensed driver. Draw your own conclusions.
Isn't it "up there" to you?
Isn't it "up there" to you?
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03-21-08, 08:18 AM
#112
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[QUOTE][QUOTE=dedhed;6362197]
So I guess you would have no problem with taxpayers in a white neighborhood complaining of "suspicous black people" in the neighborhood, and then the cops coming in and stopping all the black drivers for DWB(driving while black)?
Easy. Not guilty. The state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that I committed the infraction. To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders, some of whom crossed an intersection on a yellow light, some on a red, while he was stopped at the side of the road.
I thought this was in the morning tying up rush hour traffic. So a large number of bikes ran a red [B]In the dark no less[B]?/B] That's a pretty safe thing to do.
And that is what I expect my tax dollars to do. Public servants responding to complaints of the taxpayers.[/QUOTE]
I thought this was in the morning tying up rush hour traffic. So a large number of bikes ran a red [B]In the dark no less[B]?/B] That's a pretty safe thing to do.
And that is what I expect my tax dollars to do. Public servants responding to complaints of the taxpayers.[/QUOTE]
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
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1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-21-08, 11:55 AM
#113
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[QUOTE=San Rensho;6378991][QUOTE]
No, it would NOT be ok. However, in your case, you and your 50 to 100 friends were stopped after committing a traffic violation (running a red light). If the police stopped all of you before you ran the light and shook you down, you would have a very valid argument. As it stands, your analogy has very little to do with your situation.
I see nothing wrong with citizens reporting suspicious (or criminal behavior) to the police. I would expect the police to check on the complaint whether the "suspicious" party was black, white, green, blue or orange. If criminal activity was found, I would expect the police to deal with it. If no criminal activity was observed, I would expect the police to politely let that individual go about their business. I understand that this does not always happen in the real world, but I hope that it would happen much more often than not.
I suspect the complaint against you and your friends was something to the effect of: "a very large group of cyclists regularly committing traffic violations and causing a public hazard". The police investigated it, waited for you at the traffic light, and found the complaint to be valid. Traffic tickets were issued.
As cyclists, we have the right to use public streets, but we need to do so in a responsible manner. How can we expect respect from the establishment if we are keep feeding the stereotype that bicyclists are dangerous and don't belong on the road?
I see nothing wrong with citizens reporting suspicious (or criminal behavior) to the police. I would expect the police to check on the complaint whether the "suspicious" party was black, white, green, blue or orange. If criminal activity was found, I would expect the police to deal with it. If no criminal activity was observed, I would expect the police to politely let that individual go about their business. I understand that this does not always happen in the real world, but I hope that it would happen much more often than not.
I suspect the complaint against you and your friends was something to the effect of: "a very large group of cyclists regularly committing traffic violations and causing a public hazard". The police investigated it, waited for you at the traffic light, and found the complaint to be valid. Traffic tickets were issued.
As cyclists, we have the right to use public streets, but we need to do so in a responsible manner. How can we expect respect from the establishment if we are keep feeding the stereotype that bicyclists are dangerous and don't belong on the road?
03-21-08, 07:26 PM
#114
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03-21-08, 07:52 PM
#115
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Easy. Not guilty. The state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that I committed the infraction. To do so, the cop has to testify that he saw me run a red light, in the pitch black of night, in a group of 50-100 tightly packed riders, some of whom crossed an intersection on a yellow light, some on a red, while he was stopped at the side of the road.
He will have to perjure himself to testify that he picked me out of 100 riders and I am hoping that he will be honorable and simply tell the truth, that he thinks I was in the group but can't say for sure that I was. If he tells the truth, I am confident the judge will find a reasonable doubt and dismiss.
He will have to perjure himself to testify that he picked me out of 100 riders and I am hoping that he will be honorable and simply tell the truth, that he thinks I was in the group but can't say for sure that I was. If he tells the truth, I am confident the judge will find a reasonable doubt and dismiss.
Wait,
You complain that law enforcement have limited time, and should be out there enforcing serious traffic offenses and crimes. Now you are saying that you will waste valuable law enforcement officers time by dragging them to court to testify about something that you admitted here to doing, i.e. running a red light.
As an LEO, I can tell you that every State has traffic laws, thousands of them. We enforce traffic offenses when we see them occur. Yes sometimes they are self-initiated while some come from citizen complaints, etc. To say that speeding is worse than running red-lights doesn't make sense. People are taught how to use traffic ways and signals. A green light means that it is safe to proceed because other traffic is stopped with red lights. Having a vehicle, and yes a bicycle is a vehicle run it is very dangerous, more dangerous than speeding.
Also sometimes officers tell the violator what they want them to hear so they don't have to argue or debate a situation on the side of the highway. The side of the highway is not the place to have a debate on the validity of the stop or have an impromptu trial, that is what courtrooms are for. The court doesn't care why the officer was there when the violation occurred, the court is concerned with the violation itself.
I have written hundreds of different violations during my career. From headlights out, to illegal tint on windows, to expired inspections. Some complain that writing a ticket for expired inspection is silly, as we should be getting speeders out there running innocent people off the road. Then we go and pick someone off the highway from a fatal accident, and the accident re-constructionist finds that the vehicle was in such disrepair that it caused the accident. Why did we let it happen? Because someone thinks that expired inspections are silly tickets to write?
03-21-08, 07:53 PM
#116
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03-21-08, 08:05 PM
#117
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[QUOTE=Daily Commute;6382462]Ohio has the right compromise--cyclists pay the same fine, but we don't get points on our license. This was part of a bill backed by the Ohio Bike Federation.[/QUOTE
Pennsylvania makes cyclists pay the fine and court costs, but not all the other associated costs, like Catastrophe fund (as they are not entitled to collect) EMS funds (for Firetrucks, ambulances) and court computer system funds. Takes it from a minimum total citation of $106 for any offense to $50.00
Pennsylvania makes cyclists pay the fine and court costs, but not all the other associated costs, like Catastrophe fund (as they are not entitled to collect) EMS funds (for Firetrucks, ambulances) and court computer system funds. Takes it from a minimum total citation of $106 for any offense to $50.00
03-22-08, 10:28 PM
#118
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I can see how you're upset by this, but I have little sympathy for people who moan about getting caught for traffic violations. You were wrong. Pay up and be more careful next time. Equating this to racial discrimination is in poor taste.
03-23-08, 09:39 AM
#119
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I strongly agree. Racism is evil. Bad bike policy is just bad policy. And here, the cyclists were violating the law. There is no peleton exception to traffic laws.
The residents should be careful what they ask for, though. Instead of having to deal with just one group of cyclists, they will now have to deal with two. It's not that much easier to pass 25 cyclists, than to pass 50, so the residents will faces even more traffic problems.
This case has a sense of poetry. Lawbreaking cyclists have to pay for their lawbreaking. Stuck up motorists get stuck behind an additional group of cyclists. Karma.
The residents should be careful what they ask for, though. Instead of having to deal with just one group of cyclists, they will now have to deal with two. It's not that much easier to pass 25 cyclists, than to pass 50, so the residents will faces even more traffic problems.
This case has a sense of poetry. Lawbreaking cyclists have to pay for their lawbreaking. Stuck up motorists get stuck behind an additional group of cyclists. Karma.
03-23-08, 10:28 AM
#120
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Thread Starter
That's a red herring. If residents complained about people breaking into houses, the cops would be justified to visit and arrest anybody they saw breaking into a house, no?
I can see how you're upset by this, but I have little sympathy for people who moan about getting caught for traffic violations. You were wrong. Pay up and be more careful next time. Equating this to racial discrimination is in poor taste.
I can see how you're upset by this, but I have little sympathy for people who moan about getting caught for traffic violations. You were wrong. Pay up and be more careful next time. Equating this to racial discrimination is in poor taste.
In my case, the cops are doing exactly the samer thing, targetting a group because of a certain characteristic, bicyclists, because of complaints by another group, drivers, and then harassing them with petty violations so that they will no longer ride their bikes in the drivers neighborhood. The analogy is exact.
As I have explained in my previous posts, there has been an ongoing war, that I have been witness to far at least the past ten years, between the residents of Key Biscayne who do not want cyclists riding on the causeway, and cyclists. Becaue of the drivers political clout and the general bias against cyclists by law enforcement, law enforcement targets in an effort to keep them off the causeway, they are not doing it because of safety, but to harass.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
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1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-23-08, 10:40 AM
#121
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Just outside of downtown Miami is the exclusive enclave of key Biscayne, which can only be reached by a causeway. The causeway has a very wide shoulder so it is he used heavily by cyclists. The rich residents of key Biscayne, however, resent the fact that anyone else can use "their" causeway and have complained to the police who are more than willing to oblige them to rid Tony key Biscayne of the scourge of bicyclists.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway, the light turns yellow as the first people in the group get to the intersection and is red by the time those in the back of the group crossed the intersection. The police, knowing the exact time that the group is on Causeway, had three cruisers waiting to catch us. One cruiser speeds past us and stops in the middle of the road, almost running into some cyclists. Most of the cyclists don't even stop, but I did. The police readily admit that the only reason they are doing this is because the residents have complained. I asked the police officer what's more dangerous, the bicyclists on the causeway or the speeders. He readily admits that speeding is more dangerous on the cause wait where the posted speed limit 40 mph, and the average speed is 60-80 mph on the causeway.
Eventually, about five police cars including a supervisor are involved in the "bust", tying up early-morning rush-hour traffic for miles. I got a $200 ticket for running a red light which I'm going to contest.
So on Wednesday morning I was doing the Wednesdat morning training ride/race with a group of between 50 and 100 cyclists and as we approach a stop light on the Causeway, the light turns yellow as the first people in the group get to the intersection and is red by the time those in the back of the group crossed the intersection. The police, knowing the exact time that the group is on Causeway, had three cruisers waiting to catch us. One cruiser speeds past us and stops in the middle of the road, almost running into some cyclists. Most of the cyclists don't even stop, but I did. The police readily admit that the only reason they are doing this is because the residents have complained. I asked the police officer what's more dangerous, the bicyclists on the causeway or the speeders. He readily admits that speeding is more dangerous on the cause wait where the posted speed limit 40 mph, and the average speed is 60-80 mph on the causeway.
Eventually, about five police cars including a supervisor are involved in the "bust", tying up early-morning rush-hour traffic for miles. I got a $200 ticket for running a red light which I'm going to contest.
03-23-08, 02:07 PM
#122
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I find your resistance to sense to be astonishing.
Once again, using small words: Your group rode through a red light. This is illegal. It is also very dangerous. Police witnessed this. You were in the wrong. You were arrested. Do not run red lights. It does not matter why the police were there. You were arrested for breaking the law. Do not break the law. Breaking the law is foolish. Breaking the law is bad. Breaking the law means you can be arrested. You were arrested for breaking a law. It is against the law to ride or drive through a red light. There is no exception for riding or driving in a group. Stop being a baby. Stop claiming that the police were being unfair. The police enforced the law. You were breaking the law. The law is there to keep you safe. Riding through a red light is dangerous. Riding through a red light is illegal. It is illegal because it is dangerous. Do not ride through red lights.
Once again, using small words: Your group rode through a red light. This is illegal. It is also very dangerous. Police witnessed this. You were in the wrong. You were arrested. Do not run red lights. It does not matter why the police were there. You were arrested for breaking the law. Do not break the law. Breaking the law is foolish. Breaking the law is bad. Breaking the law means you can be arrested. You were arrested for breaking a law. It is against the law to ride or drive through a red light. There is no exception for riding or driving in a group. Stop being a baby. Stop claiming that the police were being unfair. The police enforced the law. You were breaking the law. The law is there to keep you safe. Riding through a red light is dangerous. Riding through a red light is illegal. It is illegal because it is dangerous. Do not ride through red lights.
03-23-08, 02:09 PM
#123
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Yeah, I agree. I'm a car-light bicyclist, and I would call the cops to set up a bust if I saw a paceline regularly blowing through a red light.
03-23-08, 02:36 PM
#124
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I find your resistance to sense to be astonishing.
Once again, using small words: Your group rode through a red light. This is illegal. It is also very dangerous. Police witnessed this. You were in the wrong. You were arrested. Do not run red lights. It does not matter why the police were there. You were arrested for breaking the law. Do not break the law. Breaking the law is foolish. Breaking the law is bad. Breaking the law means you can be arrested. You were arrested for breaking a law. It is against the law to ride or drive through a red light. There is no exception for riding or driving in a group. Stop being a baby. Stop claiming that the police were being unfair. The police enforced the law. You were breaking the law. The law is there to keep you safe. Riding through a red light is dangerous. Riding through a red light is illegal. It is illegal because it is dangerous. Do not ride through red lights.
Once again, using small words: Your group rode through a red light. This is illegal. It is also very dangerous. Police witnessed this. You were in the wrong. You were arrested. Do not run red lights. It does not matter why the police were there. You were arrested for breaking the law. Do not break the law. Breaking the law is foolish. Breaking the law is bad. Breaking the law means you can be arrested. You were arrested for breaking a law. It is against the law to ride or drive through a red light. There is no exception for riding or driving in a group. Stop being a baby. Stop claiming that the police were being unfair. The police enforced the law. You were breaking the law. The law is there to keep you safe. Riding through a red light is dangerous. Riding through a red light is illegal. It is illegal because it is dangerous. Do not ride through red lights.
I do not admit to running a red light, you and many others on this forum have convicted me of doing so because I was in a group where some of the riders ran a red.
I was not arrested, I was given a ticket.
You need help, I hope you get it before its too late.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-23-08, 03:10 PM
#125
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In some states-- California, for instance-- a traffic stop resulting in a citation is an arrest, and by signing the citation, you are promising to appear. According to the California Supreme Court, the citation is a non-custodial arrest; if you refuse to sign the citation, you will be taken into custody.
If I recall correctly, in at least one state-- I don't remember which-- the legislature has specified that vehicle operators can't be placed under custodial arrest for traffic violations.
I don't know offhand whether a citation is considered an arrest in Florida or not, but I think the question would depend on whether you can be taken into custody for refusing to sign the citation.
If I recall correctly, in at least one state-- I don't remember which-- the legislature has specified that vehicle operators can't be placed under custodial arrest for traffic violations.
I don't know offhand whether a citation is considered an arrest in Florida or not, but I think the question would depend on whether you can be taken into custody for refusing to sign the citation.