Top Two Driver Complaints About Cyclists
10-19-11, 01:25 PM
#251
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Yeah, I need to learn to unsubscribe to threads here and in P&R after the first page or two. Then it gets freaking ridiculous.
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10-19-11, 02:03 PM
#252
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how do I figure out how cyclists single file take up less space in the road, or that its easier -you didn't say 'safer' earlier ('safer passing' is oxymoronic anyway)- to pass cyclists single file? Obviously, a rider from the sixth dimension, folks, where time and space have no meaning.
oh, didn't you see? in the absence of traffic i operated squarely in the middle of the lane, and pulled only as far to the right i considered safely right to facilitate a pass, even though the motorists were all passing at a well buffered and safe distance well into the other lane.
A rider operated lane centered or left tire track on a 55mph state highway as pictured in the video - like digital cowboy and itsjustmes' stated riding method - refusing to move safely right when faster traffic is behind, oversteps reasonable road use by a bicyclist, fails the reasonable person standard embodied in lane positioning laws for bicyclists, and would unquestionably chafe motorists right in the chamois.
!
Bicyclists have a duty in most states to operate single file if single file can facilitate a pass and riding double file unecessarily impedes faster traffic. Traffic unduly impeding faster traffic is against the law in most states. Bicyclists in most states do not have the right to remain doubled up relentlessly in the face of faster traffic behind.
Yes, cyclists beware of a certain "cyclist" from a "Puget Sound moss farm."
10-19-11, 02:14 PM
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shirley you can't be serious.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 02:17 PM.
10-19-11, 02:25 PM
#254
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Who cares what the top two drivers think about us?
10-19-11, 02:38 PM
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shirley you can't be serious.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.Why can't you answer a question put to you?
As others here have said IF a road/lane is wide enough to safely share with a car I will share the lane. However IF the road/lane is NOT wide enough to safely share we as cyclists are under NO obligation to share it. Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp? You who claim to not only be a cyclist but a LAB instructor.
And please go back and read Trotwood v Selz. You will learn that a vehicle that is traveling at a speed that is safe and reasonable for it cannot be found guilty of impeding traffic because they ARE traffic.
10-19-11, 02:48 PM
#256
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you're confused if you think a lane too narrow to share entirely within the lane gives a bicyclist the right to ride far left on a road as pictured in the video, when faster traffic wishes to overtake. there must be a reasonable and compelling reason to ride that far left.
share the road, you don't get to decide the a lane on a two lane state highway in and of itself makes it so you cannot share a state highway by riding safely right. Riders are regulated in most every state in the presence of faster traffic to operate safely right on roads as pictured in my video, and take the lane only when reasonably necessary to move far left in the lane.
Simply put: riders don't get to unwaveringly block traffic riding 12 feet out in a 13 foot lane on a two lane 55mph state highway, in most every state, unless there is a reasonably compelling traffic, turning, road or surface condition that merits it.
partial lane passing of bicyclists is commonplace and legal in a growing number of states.
I have been consistent in my message that riders in all states have the right take to the far left of the lane if a reasonable and compelling safety need mandates that position, even in the presence of faster traffic.
i do not appreciate your maligning screed that ignores both statute and long standing traffic conventions surrounding safe and legally compliant road bicycling.
digital cowboys statements are at odds with how to safely share the road.
posturing cyclists have the right to travel square in the lane or left tire track biased, never pulling safely right to faciltitate a pass, on a two lane 55mph state highway, as pictured in my video?
In denial of cyclists rights and responsibilities, and neither legal nor courteous in most states. (of course, i hope digital cowboy notices for the entirely of the video i was both 'in the lane' and 'safely passed' despite nitpicking over my lateral lane position.)
What a traffic nightmare.
share the road, you don't get to decide the a lane on a two lane state highway in and of itself makes it so you cannot share a state highway by riding safely right. Riders are regulated in most every state in the presence of faster traffic to operate safely right on roads as pictured in my video, and take the lane only when reasonably necessary to move far left in the lane.
Simply put: riders don't get to unwaveringly block traffic riding 12 feet out in a 13 foot lane on a two lane 55mph state highway, in most every state, unless there is a reasonably compelling traffic, turning, road or surface condition that merits it.
partial lane passing of bicyclists is commonplace and legal in a growing number of states.
I have been consistent in my message that riders in all states have the right take to the far left of the lane if a reasonable and compelling safety need mandates that position, even in the presence of faster traffic.
i do not appreciate your maligning screed that ignores both statute and long standing traffic conventions surrounding safe and legally compliant road bicycling.
digital cowboys statements are at odds with how to safely share the road.
Originally Posted by digital cowboy
That is a road with lanes that are two narrow for a car to safely pass a bicyclist. There is no bike lane, and no shoulder on that road. Therefore the only safe place for a cyclist to ride is in the lane.
In denial of cyclists rights and responsibilities, and neither legal nor courteous in most states. (of course, i hope digital cowboy notices for the entirely of the video i was both 'in the lane' and 'safely passed' despite nitpicking over my lateral lane position.)
What a traffic nightmare.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 03:01 PM.
10-19-11, 02:52 PM
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These forums get really slow in the off-season don't they?
DC, once the driver gets around the cyclist in the left track, he still has to slide over into the lane. He doesn't have to slide over as far when he's passing a cyclist in the right track. The same goes for the beginning of the pass. So the passing distance is greater. Not much, granted, but some.
What concerns me more is the situation where someone's judgment is weak. He slides out, has misjudged the time he has available, and either aborts or guns it to get around. Either way I'm much better off close to the right side, allowing both motor vehicles to maneuver an extra five or six feet without hitting me.
DC, once the driver gets around the cyclist in the left track, he still has to slide over into the lane. He doesn't have to slide over as far when he's passing a cyclist in the right track. The same goes for the beginning of the pass. So the passing distance is greater. Not much, granted, but some.
What concerns me more is the situation where someone's judgment is weak. He slides out, has misjudged the time he has available, and either aborts or guns it to get around. Either way I'm much better off close to the right side, allowing both motor vehicles to maneuver an extra five or six feet without hitting me.
10-19-11, 03:00 PM
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shirley you can't be serious.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.
what a case of indignant, maligned rectitude. the indignant gladiator syndrome.
rancorous grief because of an admitted inability to share a state highway by riding safely right?
as if it's up to me to explain statutory traffic law to digital cowboy.
10-19-11, 03:05 PM
#259
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sorry, surely.
10-19-11, 03:08 PM
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you're confused if you think a lane too narrow to share entirely within the lane gives a bicyclist the right to ride far left on a road as pictured in the video, when faster traffic wishes to overtake. there must be a reasonable and compelling reason to ride that far left.
Originally Posted by F.S. 316.083
The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.
then I am like most here taking the lane.
I have been consistent in my message that riders in all states have the right take to the far left of the lane if a reasonable and compelling safety need mandates that position, even in the presence of faster traffic.
i do not appreciate your maligning screed that ignores both statute and long standing traffic conventions surrounding safe and legally compliant road bicycling.
i do not appreciate your maligning screed that ignores both statute and long standing traffic conventions surrounding safe and legally compliant road bicycling.
I think that you had better re-review the laws, or at least stick to the laws in the state and city that you are from.
10-19-11, 03:14 PM
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do you not understand how vehicles partially passing cyclists is both commonplace and legal in a growing number of states? do you understand some states have laws regulating riders move single file to facilitate a pass?
riders in florida cannot ride two abreast and impede traffic. This is the law in florida. If you think florida law allows you as part of a weekend pelotons to operate two by two on every narrow two lane road for miles on end in the face of faster traffic behind, there's a obvious problem in your duty of care to your responsibilities as road users.
laws regulating bikes in substandard width lanes still require a reasonably compelling need to position away from the right, in most states.
in other words, a rider cannot UN-reasonably ride far to the left.
this is the case in most states.
and if you don't understand how to safely share the road, and think riders can unquestionably ride in the left tire track of two lane state highways in the face of faster traffic simply because you want a full lane change to pass, we have found one of the culprits in the motorits ire.
I'd really like to see some video of your unwavering use of the center or left tire track of two lane 55mph state highways when there's passing traffic is working out for you how the 'sharing the road' thing works using your purported method.
remember, riders have the right to take the entire lane, in every state, if a reasonable and compelling turning, traffic road or safety need mandates it, not like walter mitty daydreaming he's a bus driver.
riders in florida cannot ride two abreast and impede traffic. This is the law in florida. If you think florida law allows you as part of a weekend pelotons to operate two by two on every narrow two lane road for miles on end in the face of faster traffic behind, there's a obvious problem in your duty of care to your responsibilities as road users.
laws regulating bikes in substandard width lanes still require a reasonably compelling need to position away from the right, in most states.
in other words, a rider cannot UN-reasonably ride far to the left.
this is the case in most states.
and if you don't understand how to safely share the road, and think riders can unquestionably ride in the left tire track of two lane state highways in the face of faster traffic simply because you want a full lane change to pass, we have found one of the culprits in the motorits ire.
I'd really like to see some video of your unwavering use of the center or left tire track of two lane 55mph state highways when there's passing traffic is working out for you
how the 'sharing the road' thing works using your purported method.remember, riders have the right to take the entire lane, in every state, if a reasonable and compelling turning, traffic road or safety need mandates it, not like walter mitty daydreaming he's a bus driver.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 03:26 PM.
10-19-11, 03:28 PM
#262
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the reasonable person standard that pervades road positioning laws as well as the entire traffic code, in every state.
are you familiar with the reasonable person standard in law?
really? Cars cant pass bicyclists by partially moving into the opposing lane, The cars were unable to pass me safely?
Partial lane passing of bicyclists is commonplace and legal in a growing number of states. in florida, motorists must just pass with three feet of clearance, not 'change lanes entirely to pass' bicyclists.
Now, i've taken the lane plenty of times on high speed roads and prevented passes when passes were unsafe and there was a reasoanbly compelling reason to operate far left in a lane. i find my self frequently, squarely and unwaveringly in front of traffic as i approach bridge decks or other pinch points, on narrow higway roads.
However, i do not do it for miles on end without consideration of facilitiating a safe pass.
and in that light, I'd really like to see some video of your unwavering use of the center or left tire track of two lane 55mph state highways when there's passing traffic is working out for you. How your personal notions of how to 'share the road' thing works using your purported method.
and im not talking four lane, 45mph arterials and two people riding block. I'm talking solo rider on a two lane state highway.
are you familiar with the reasonable person standard in law?
Originally Posted by digital cowboy
We're talking about roads/lanes that are too NARROW for a car and bicycle traveling in the same direction to safely pass each other.
Partial lane passing of bicyclists is commonplace and legal in a growing number of states. in florida, motorists must just pass with three feet of clearance, not 'change lanes entirely to pass' bicyclists.
Now, i've taken the lane plenty of times on high speed roads and prevented passes when passes were unsafe and there was a reasoanbly compelling reason to operate far left in a lane. i find my self frequently, squarely and unwaveringly in front of traffic as i approach bridge decks or other pinch points, on narrow higway roads.
However, i do not do it for miles on end without consideration of facilitiating a safe pass.
and in that light, I'd really like to see some video of your unwavering use of the center or left tire track of two lane 55mph state highways when there's passing traffic is working out for you. How your personal notions of how to 'share the road' thing works using your purported method.
and im not talking four lane, 45mph arterials and two people riding block. I'm talking solo rider on a two lane state highway.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 03:40 PM. Reason: uently
10-19-11, 03:55 PM
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10-19-11, 05:50 PM
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riders in Florida cannot ride two abreast and impede traffic. This is the law in Florida. If you think Florida law allows you as part of a weekend pelotons to operate two by two on every narrow two lane road for miles on end in the face of faster traffic behind, there's a obvious problem in your duty of care to your responsibilities as road users.
Originally Posted by F.S. 316.2065
Subsection (6) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway may not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. Persons riding two abreast may not impede traffic when traveling at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing and shall ride within a single lane.
Originally Posted by F.S. 316.2065
(5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as practicable.
1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as practicable.
It looks as if your interpretation of Florida law is flawed.
I said take the lane I did not say to ride to the far left.
this is the case in most states.
and if you don't understand how to safely share the road, and think riders can unquestionably ride in the left tire track of two lane state highways in the face of faster traffic simply because you want a full lane change to pass, we have found one of the culprits in the motorits ire.
and if you don't understand how to safely share the road, and think riders can unquestionably ride in the left tire track of two lane state highways in the face of faster traffic simply because you want a full lane change to pass, we have found one of the culprits in the motorits ire.
I will admit that when having motorists who failed to slow down coming out of driveways and side streets that I have moved over to the left tire track but I do not ride in the left tire track. I ride either in the right tire track or I take the lane when needed.
Also as others have noted when I ride "hugging the curb" or in the gutter pan I get too many close passes, when I either ride in the tire track or take the lane I do not get as many close passes. Although I do get more close passes when riding in the right tire track vs actually taking the lane.
See subsection 5 of F.S. 316.2065 above.
10-19-11, 06:06 PM
#267
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the reasonable person standard that pervades road positioning laws as well as the entire traffic code, in every state.
are you familiar with the reasonable person standard in law?
really? Cars cant pass bicyclists by partially moving into the opposing lane, The cars were unable to pass me safely?
are you familiar with the reasonable person standard in law?
really? Cars cant pass bicyclists by partially moving into the opposing lane, The cars were unable to pass me safely?
Now, I've taken the lane plenty of times on high speed roads and prevented passes when passes were unsafe and there was a reasonably compelling reason to operate far left in a lane. i find my self frequently, squarely and unwaveringly in front of traffic as i approach bridge decks or other pinch points, on narrow highway roads.
and in that light, I'd really like to see some video of your unwavering use of the center or left tire track of two lane 55mph state highways when there's passing traffic is working out for you. How your personal notions of how to 'share the road' thing works using your purported method.
Again, please tell me when and where I have said that I regularly ride two-lane 55MPH highways?
10-19-11, 06:10 PM
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oh, so you pull right when its safe to facilitate a pass? surely you're not talking vacating the roadway for traffic, are you? you mean you pull to the right of the roadway, right?
then why bust my chops, cowboy?
but you're not that familiar with some traffic conditions riders might face that might behoove a rider to share two lane high speed roads, even if they think the lane is 'too narrow to share entirely within the lane' with the car, eh?
digital cowboy continues to obtusely ignore the reasonable person standard explicit in the florida law allowing a rider to take the lane, when reasonably necessary, in a lane he thinks is too narrow to share.
reasonable standards pervade traffic law.
operating unwaveringly to the left of a rural two lane highway because the bicyclist believes they have no obligation to 'share the lane' in the face of traffic wanting to pass?
neither legal nor courteous for bicyclists in most states. and yes, the new safe passing laws being passed in some states allow motorists to cross solid double yellow lines to pass bicyclists.
send in more of those singing wahines.
Drivers are not fond of bicyclists needlessly impeding traffic. Sometimes, groups of cyclists operating with mistaken impressions about traffic law can drive not just bad feelings but actual legislative censure. the florida nightmare. riders, beware.
then why bust my chops, cowboy?
but you're not that familiar with some traffic conditions riders might face that might behoove a rider to share two lane high speed roads, even if they think the lane is 'too narrow to share entirely within the lane' with the car, eh?
digital cowboy continues to obtusely ignore the reasonable person standard explicit in the florida law allowing a rider to take the lane, when reasonably necessary, in a lane he thinks is too narrow to share.
reasonable standards pervade traffic law.
operating unwaveringly to the left of a rural two lane highway because the bicyclist believes they have no obligation to 'share the lane' in the face of traffic wanting to pass?
neither legal nor courteous for bicyclists in most states. and yes, the new safe passing laws being passed in some states allow motorists to cross solid double yellow lines to pass bicyclists.
send in more of those singing wahines.
Drivers are not fond of bicyclists needlessly impeding traffic. Sometimes, groups of cyclists operating with mistaken impressions about traffic law can drive not just bad feelings but actual legislative censure. the florida nightmare. riders, beware.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 06:22 PM.
10-19-11, 06:19 PM
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digital cowboy continues to obtusely ignore the reasonable person standard explicit in the florida law allowing a rider to take the lane, when reasonably necessary, in a lane he thinks is too narrow to share.
reasonable standards pervade traffic law.
operating unwaveringly to the left of a rural two lane highway because the bicyclist believes they have no obligation to 'share the lane' in the face of traffic wanting to pass?
neither legal nor courteous for bicyclists in most states.
send in more of those singing wahines.
reasonable standards pervade traffic law.
operating unwaveringly to the left of a rural two lane highway because the bicyclist believes they have no obligation to 'share the lane' in the face of traffic wanting to pass?
neither legal nor courteous for bicyclists in most states.
send in more of those singing wahines.
Again, please tell me where I ever said that I regularly ride on 55MPH two-lane rural highways? Or that I ride in the left side of the road.
10-19-11, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by digital cowboy
And you are ignoring the letter of the law. If a lane is 8 or so feet wide are you are saying that it is safe for a car to pass a bicycle in said lane or even to partially pass a bicycle in said lane?
Again, please tell me where I ever said that I regularly ride on 55MPH two-lane rural highways?
Again, please tell me where I ever said that I regularly ride on 55MPH two-lane rural highways?
i can legally ride far to the left.....that's what you're insinuating to the forum.
you didn't mention ANYthing about your experience on narrow 55mph two lane state highways, but you have incessantly criticizing my suggested considerate, legal and safe riding techniques for riding them. you proclaim riders DON'T have to share the road on roads as pictured in my video, and can ride in any lateral position in the lane on a 55mph two lane rural highway.
i'm sorry, but that's both unreasonable and discourteous.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 07:18 PM.
10-19-11, 06:57 PM
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no, that's not what I'm saying about 8 foot lanes, and you continue to overlook the explicit reasonableness standard in the Florida law you think gives riders unquestioned rights to any lane position on a road a rider thinks they can't share within the lane. what if i want 8 feet of passing clearance on each side, and three feet to my right, or I'm not sharing? I'll never going to have to share any lane, anywhere in Florida now, am I? i can legally ride far to the left.....
i can legally ride far to the left.....It is, really?
you didn't mention ANYthing about your experience on narrow 55mph two lane state highways, but you have incessantly criticizing my suggested considerate, legal and safe riding techniques for riding them. you proclaim riders DON'T have to share the road on roads as pictured in my video, and can ride in any lateral position in the lane on a 55mph two lane rural highway.
How is it unreasonable or discourteous for a cyclist to put their safety first?
10-19-11, 07:04 PM
#272
totally louche
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Safety as well as reasonableness pervade traffic law, and I'm not suggesting you compromise either of them
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-19-11 at 07:17 PM.
10-19-11, 08:11 PM
#273
On your right
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10-19-11, 08:13 PM
#274
On your right
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10-19-11, 09:08 PM
#275
Senior Member