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Torque for a new Surly Ogre build...

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Torque for a new Surly Ogre build...

Old 07-31-19, 09:59 PM
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Bike Jedi
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Torque for a new Surly Ogre build...

Building this bike by hand: https://www.cyclingabout.com/custom-...ing-bike-2019/

I know how to do the build myself, but I have never used a torque wrench on anything before. I understand how they work and I know if I speak in front of engineers, I should not be asking, "Does this need really be torqued?"

But, I honestly don't know the answers to those things. I would imagine I could find a spec for every single screw that needs to be torqued on a bike and how much. I honestly don't know how important as an amateur mechanic, I need to be worried about this, and I don't want to lay out the cost for a torque wrench right now if I don't need to for various reasons.

So how important is it to torque things? Can I go without doing it if I have a descent mechanical sense of things? If not, what are the "critical" things to have done? If I absolutely "had" to have some things torqued on a new build, what needs to be done that maybe I can run over to my LBS, and pay them a few bucks, to torque down the last couple of things that need to be done? Can I even do something like that, or is there something that is going to come up, that needs to be torqued on the spot, that will prevent me from going any further until it's done?

I have watched videos of Bottom Brackets being installed, and have seen mechanics talk about "hand tight" is good on them, and talking about to the level of what that means. And that is how I have done it.

The wheel set is being done professionally so nothing there for me to worry about. The one place that comes to mind that I need to ask about is the 6 bolt discs being attached to the wheel set. I would assume that is one place that might be important. The other places on a bike that I can think of, including disc brakes, I have been doing by hand for years, with thread lock, and never had any issues. Everything else on handlebars, racks, etc.. I am comfortable with hand tight and thread lock where applicable also.

Is there anything I really need to be concerned with? As an amateur bike mechanic, what is the correct way, what should I know, understand, and what would I want to know that I don't know now?

Thanks

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Old 07-31-19, 11:29 PM
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You are basically right, the brakes, just make sure they are very tight with some thread locker. Unless you have an ebike motor you don't need a torque wrench to build a touring bike. Torque wrenches are important when you have to get beyond "as hard as you can crank it" and if you have to make sure you don't over tighten something to the point it causes damage, or if vibrating parts etc. I think you answered your own question.

Having said all that, it's not like lower torque wrenches are expensive! I have one and use it because it's fun and makes me feel better.

Also, holy crap, that bike looks like it has a case of boss-itis.
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Old 07-31-19, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
I would imagine I could find a spec for every single screw that needs to be torqued on a bike and how much. I honestly don't know how important as an amateur mechanic, I need to be worried about this, and I don't want to lay out the cost for a torque wrench right now if I don't need to for various reasons.
The bits on a bike that are most often over- or under-torqued are the seat post clamp and the stem. Too little torque, and they will slip. Too much torque, and the bolts will snap, or the threads will strip out.

If you don't have a torque wrench, gradually tighten these bolts until the saddle/bars don't move under heavy load.

But you really ought to invest in a small torque wrench, they are pretty cheap. Like this one.

And for sure, never exceed the maximum torque for the bolt size.
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Old 08-01-19, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquakitty View Post
I think you answered your own question.
That's what I kind of thought, but I wanted to make sure.

I have one and use it because it's fun and makes me feel better.
Well dang. I am trying to get "minimalist" zen like thinking going on here and you're playing tug of war with my emotions. Of course I want one, of course they are fun, and of course I want to play too!

Ok...back to being focused and minimalist thinking dang it. (kidding of course)

Thanks for confirmation on the other stuff.

boss-itis.
I have never heard this word. Is this what you mean when you use it?

Bossitis (noun): When an extra man or extra woman is temporarily elevated to the head's position and let's the hubris go to his or her head, making questionable, imperious decisions.

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Old 08-01-19, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
But you really ought to invest in a small torque wrench, they are pretty cheap. Like this one.
Yes, I will long term but at the moment isn't the right time so I am trying to get by without having to. I am actually thinking about selling off all my tools so I actually don't want to add to the mix at the moment, and I don' think it's something worth carrying while on the road.

As for my seat post, I don't see realistically ever really doing that because of how much I pop seats in and out, move them, want to yank it at a store to feel safer, etc... The stem I can see wanting to do right. I never get them right anyway. That's a good spot I didn't really think has as much value as I originally thought until you brought it up.

So if I did have a torque wrench, so far, stem and 6 bolt rotor are two places, I personally would do and feel better about torquing "if" I had it.
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Old 08-01-19, 02:40 AM
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Just get it. Its equally as nice as a tyre pump with a gauge. You dont NEED either, but you be happy to have it.
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Old 08-01-19, 05:45 AM
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Some things like threaded bottom bracket cups have a high torque spec and you are unlikely to tighten them adequately without a torque wrench. Others like stem bolts, particularly on a carbon steerer or handle bar, have a low torque spec and you are likely to over torque them without a torque wrench.

Get a couple of torque wrenches. A 1/4" and a 1/2" square drive beam wrenches should cover the full range and are relatively inexpensive.
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Old 08-01-19, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
So how important is it to torque things? Can I go without doing it if I have a descent mechanical sense of things? If not, what are the "critical" things to have done?
Where I feel torquing has most value is when you have two bolts clamping the same piece of metal and want even pressure across those two bolts. Think stem bolts, faceplate bolts, and even those little Shimano crank-arm bolts. When a torque wrench isn't handy, I'll pay extra attention to the amount of hand pressure on the multiple bolts involved in, for example, a stem face plate. I try to keep the tightening pressure even across all four.

I will do without a torque wrench if one isn't handy, and will use one when it is convenient. I own three of them, so it's usually convenient unless I'm out somewhere.
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Old 08-01-19, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
Where I feel torquing has most value is when you have two bolts clamping the same piece of metal and want even pressure across those two bolts.
Thank you. That was a game changer. That would make complete sense, but I just never put 2 and 2 together.

Think stem bolts, faceplate bolts, and even those little Shimano crank-arm bolts.
Yes, now I would see how these would be the most valued places and if I had one handy, the places I would focus on now.

When a torque wrench isn't handy, I'll pay extra attention to the amount of hand pressure on the multiple bolts involved in, for example, a stem face plate. I try to keep the tightening pressure even across all four.
I am doing this without realizing for "torque" reasons. When I put the crank arm on, I tighten each bolt a 1/4 turn at a time to stay in synch. Do the same thing with stem. Haven't really touched the other spots we are talking about, but this post brought everything into focus, so thanks.

I will do without a torque wrench if one isn't handy, and will use one when it is convenient. I own three of them, so it's usually convenient unless I'm out somewhere.
I don't know if you tour, but do you carry one on long tours or would you for very long ones? Like if you were doing a tour from Alaska to South America kind of trip...would a torque wrench be in your arsenal? My guess is "no" but I would like to know what you would say.

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Old 08-01-19, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Just get it. Its equally as nice as a tyre pump with a gauge. You dont NEED either, but you be happy to have it.
While touring?

I am looking at building a bike to go leave and tour full time. So purchasing more tools at the moment is not something I want to do, because then I need to resell everything. I don't personally own a lot of things, on purpose, for this reason, and pretty much have everything consolidated down to a few totes. So right now I am debating between if I put the few things I have left in storage, including all my tools, and pay the $50 bucks a month for closet space, or if I should just sell off what I have, take the extra funds, and use it while on the road. I don't know how long I will be gone or back to get that stuff, and even at $50 a month for storage space, it adds up to $600 a year. I don't have $600 in tools, so it's easier to get rid of everything than pay the storage if I am gone for multiple years. At the same token, it's not like you can just turn around and sell used tools on ebay and Craigslist "just like that." That stuff takes time, and I don't have the luxury of sitting around and waiting till all that stuff sells off. So the last thing I want to do is bring another tool into the mix right now when I have already bought stuff like Bottom Bracket tools that I am virtually going to touch once for the next two years at least. This stuff adds up. So if I am not planning to carry it, I don't want to have to get another tool.

If I was staying local long term, then I absolutely I would want a torque wrench. It's not a matter of whether I want one or not at all, but more so, can I get through this build without one? Do I need to carry one while touring (which I don't think so)? And what education can I grab from it now while the question is up there since I honestly don't know enough on the subject. So killing multiple birds with one stone.
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Old 08-01-19, 10:14 AM
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Thank you. That was a game changer. That would make complete sense, but I just never put 2 and 2 together.


It makes sense to me too, but keep in mind that I'm just an enthusiast with an opinion. I'm not a professionally licensed mechanic. I also don't use very many carbon parts.

I don't know if you tour, but do you carry one on long tours or would you for very long ones?
No. I can't imagine carrying a torque wrench. Just a multi-tool and go by feel. That would be my approach.
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Old 08-01-19, 01:07 PM
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I use a torque wrench on bottom brackets and disc brake rotors.
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Old 08-01-19, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
Where I feel torquing has most value is when you have two bolts clamping the same piece of metal and want even pressure across those two bolts. Think stem bolts, faceplate bolts, and even those little Shimano crank-arm bolts. When a torque wrench isn't handy, I'll pay extra attention to the amount of hand pressure on the multiple bolts involved in, for example, a stem face plate. I try to keep the tightening pressure even across all four.

I will do without a torque wrench if one isn't handy, and will use one when it is convenient. I own three of them, so it's usually convenient unless I'm out somewhere.
I'll second this advice, stem face plates and disc rotors specifically. Adding that with stems also look at the gap left around each side. You can easily have the same torque but have the thing all sorts of crooked.

If you have no experience with this stuff a small preset torque driver for stem bolts can be very helpful. That would be something around 5nm, although they make 4.5nm, 6nm, etc. I use one set around 6nm for disc rotor bolts, helps keep rotors from warping.

Also I would lean towards very tight on a BB, not hand tight. You are not going to strip it out, That would be very hard to do. However having it come loose will very easily damage things. The tool interface will generally fail first if someone is way over tightening a bottom bracket.

Edit: When folks say they stripped the BB, they almost always mean they wrecked the splines for the tool. And you should always start a BB by hand, the only danger is cross threading it in the first couple turns. After it's threaded in smoothly by hand about half way, go to town with a big wrench/ratchet/torque wrench.

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Old 08-01-19, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post

The pricing on most of his components is just terrible.


When I looked yesterday, the USD was getting 1.10 to the Euro's 1.00, so add 10% to the below prices and then compare them to his Amazon prices(obviously he is getting the affiliate cut)

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Schwalbe/Marathon-Almotion-Evolution-SnakeSkin-28-Folding-Tyre-2019-Model-p67305/ 29.83Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/FC-M6000-3-Deore-Hollowtech-II-Crankset-p56754/ 52.09Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/CS-HG50-10-10-speed-Cassette-p36936/ 21.84Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/CN-HG54-Deore-10-speed-Chain-p29587/ 11.76Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XT-Shadow-RD-M781-10-speed-Rear-Derailleur-p32398/ 46.21Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/SL-M6000-I-Deore-2x-3x10-speed-Shifter-with-I-Spec-II-p56781/ + 15.96 + 14.28 Euro

https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=159564;menu=1000,2,110;mid%5B106%5D=1 151.25Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XT-PD-T8000-Clipless-Platform-Pedals-p50756/ 50.41Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Brooks/Cambium-C17-Carved-All-Weather-Saddle-p59743/ 67.18Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ergon/GC1-Grips-p34290/ 24.33Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/Deore-BL-T610-Brake-Lever-p35932/ 16.80Euro

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shutter-Precision/PD-8-6-bolt-Disc-Dynamo-Hub-p42175/ 69.71Euro
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Old 08-01-19, 09:36 PM
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Pro Tip: When you do find a torque spec, write it down and keep the piece of paper with your torque wrench or in your tool box.

I have a spreadsheet taped to the inside lid of my toolbox.

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Old 08-01-19, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wesmamyke View Post
I'll second this advice, stem face plates and disc rotors specifically. Adding that with stems also look at the gap left around each side. You can easily have the same torque but have the thing all sorts of crooked.

If you have no experience with this stuff a small preset torque driver for stem bolts can be very helpful. That would be something around 5nm, although they make 4.5nm, 6nm, etc. I use one set around 6nm for disc rotor bolts, helps keep rotors from warping.

Also I would lean towards very tight on a BB, not hand tight. You are not going to strip it out, That would be very hard to do. However having it come loose will very easily damage things. The tool interface will generally fail first if someone is way over tightening a bottom bracket.

Edit: When folks say they stripped the BB, they almost always mean they wrecked the splines for the tool. And you should always start a BB by hand, the only danger is cross threading it in the first couple turns. After it's threaded in smoothly by hand about half way, go to town with a big wrench/ratchet/torque wrench.
I think everything you said here is right on the money. When I put my BB in the last bike, I did actually go fairly well tight also. I can't remember the videos I watched at the time, but they pretty much said the same thing you said and that's what I did.
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Old 08-01-19, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders View Post
The pricing on most of his components is just terrible.

If you think about it, a lot of time went into actually putting together that article. I have been reading this forum, other forums, watching tons of videos on youtube of folks I respect now on bicycle stuff, and when you get as drenched in it as I did, you can pick up a pretty good feel for what the true bang for your buck on parts are out there. Enough of you spoke about these things over time that you actually can pick up a Zeitgeist from it all, and there is some pretty common themes out there along the lines of parts. You folks all know that now too. I actually had majority of the same list of parts by the time I stumbled on his article from reading all of your experiences and comments on it over time. Of course it wasn't exact, and we have some touch point differences, and I wouldn't have had a clue about wheels or tires until I read his article. For the most part, it's actually a really sound bike, build, and advice.


He helped me finalize the 10 x 3 setup which I was leaning towards, but wasn't experienced or knowledgeable enough to know if that is what I wanted, and after hearing someone that has been around the world suggest it, it only helped me solidify my thoughts on the subject and feel comfortable about it moving forward. I actually wish I had one more higher gear when descending mountains, but that is unloaded, so I am sure fully loaded, it will be just fine. I won't be peddling my behind off fully weighted down hill in Colorado mountains, or any mountains for that part so it will do. But I do wish I had more meat in that last gear while peddling instead of being at such a high cadence and nowhere else to go.


As for the pricing, of course to an audience like this it is a bit of a joke, and I am sure even Alee knows that. There are probably a few reasons for this, I am totally guessing though. 1) He get's a tiny commission out of it on his own Amazon affiliate stuff. I don't know what that works out to exactly, and don't care enough to look, but I am sure it's pennies on the dollar if it's anything as bad as the nonprofit side when you do affiliate stuff and see that check come in after a while. It's peanuts unless you are selling tons of stuff, and I doubt that many folks are building Surly Ogre's like that where he is actually really making much at all.


2) For ease and consistency of the links staying valid for a while, it's all centralized, and if I was writing that article, it was probably the last thing done to get it finished, and it was just easy. That article probably took some time, as well as the rest of his work from what I can see. I think he is one of the better teachers in the industry, for consumer education in this arena, and just the type of topics he covers in general. Often, nobody else is covering some of the stuff he is, and to be honest, some of it is important to some folks and makes it easier. Not to mention how much educational value in general that is really there. He goes more in depth than most folks on stuff and truly educates. Super kudos for that! There are hardly many folks out there in general that really do that in any industry, and when you see it, it should be recognized and stand out. I think his stuff is top notch to be honest.


3) Folks like you and me are not going to follow his links, and he know's that too. He will however get overflow from folks that actually don't care about costs, just want to get it done, simplicity of it, and seriously just don't care about money. There are a lot of high end bike shops that work exactly off this principle and cater to just that type of audience. So if he makes a few bucks off affiliate links off those folks, I could care less to be honest. If I had it and didn't care, and my time was valuable but wanted to do a side project for a hobby or something to brake life tension, it would be super easy to follow and do. The next level of websites and future will be a lot like he has, but probably the actual install video links right next to each component as more and more folks get competitive and try to stay cutting edge in not just technology, but social media management too long term.


The folks like you and I are going to do what you and I do. The only thing I pretty much ordered off Amazon were the last $200 of parts, that are not on his page anyway, because I have prime at the moment, and they aren't going to really be beat anywhere else...stupid stuff like the 180mm brake adapters and little odds and ends. I literally bought everything else for the entire bike from other places. Between Ebay and Google "shopping" tab, and being a bit more resourceful when needed, you can do it for significantly less. E-bay is getting super competitive with Amazon now and even starting to find much faster shipping times on a lot of items there too. I have been having pretty good experiences with Ebay to date.


Even the wheelset he suggests can be found online for $100 bucks less from places like Wheel Builder Pro. My contact points on the bike are different from his build, and I don't think I am doing the wheel build he suggests at the moment. I am actually struggling with that one and thinking I might pick up an entry level wheel build like this one, and do the wheel build he is talking about over the winter once I have time on the bike touring and know it's my size and "the" bike for me long term. I am struggling about what to do about committing to a $600+ wheel build when I am not 100% sure if I will be on an Orge long term yet. And if I don't stay with the Ogre, then I might go down to a 27.5" or 26", and at that point, I don't want to be a couple of months into a $600+ wheel set to not be able to take them to another bike with me and then have to start all over again. I also don't have the entire Thru Axle or QR wheelset worked out in my mind yet either. Do I build a TA now and use QR end caps so I have the best of both worlds kind of stuff. Not knowing for sure though is not cost effective for me at all so I am not sure what to do. In many ways, I just want the final build done now though so it's done done. At the same time, I really don't want to live without a Dynmao Hub right now (at all), and if I am going to put a Dynamo hub in something, then I might as well spend the money doing the wheel build correct now, but then I am committing to this bike for a while without truly knowing if this is "the" touring bike for me or not yet. Six in one, half a dozen in the other, and my biggest challenge right now. But obviously outside the scope of the conversation.


But that was the long of, "yes you are correct. Extremely high priced that way."


Even the Ogre frame I got for $100 cheaper than what he said. Which BTW, this store just popped up on my radar, I bought my frame through them, and then I started playing with their "price matching" which is built into their website. You put the link into the site of where it is lowered priced, it scans it automatically, and if you are correct, it instantly price matches it. But it also instantly price matches everything to Amazon. So if Amazon price is lower then their prices, it automatically changes it in your shopping cart for you. So theoretically, they just about price match everything. I haven't found another site like this and I am familiar with most of the ones you all mention. As long as it's a major U.S. retailer or bike retailer kind of thing, they match. I would rather use them and have one central place to order from if they keep that kind of philosophy and technology going. If the site doesn't price match right away, it will shoot them a note and they will get back to you. But so far they have just about matched everything I have thrown at them that I can think about. Ordering some of the last couple of things I need now like a Surly front rack since they are price matching anyway. They gave me such a good deal on the frame that I don't mind giving them some more business if I can. I also got the frame a day earlier than I was expecting so they are on the ball with shipping. I don't spam or mention things, but I honestly think it's a good resource and tool for pricing and getting stuff so I am mentioning it for anyone that doesn't know about them. I never heard of them until I started this build. https://www.treefortbikes.com/ If it helps anyone else. I ordered a good portion of the stuff from them, the rest E-bay, believe it or not, I am seeing more competitive prices from Walmart online but private sellers through their infrastructure and once in a while you can pick up a pretty sick deal, and then the small stuff on Amazon which I don't think none of it was on his page.

Last edited by Bike Jedi; 08-02-19 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 08-01-19, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Pro Tip: When you do find a torque spec, write it down and keep the piece of paper with your torque wrench or in your tool box.

I have a spreadsheet taped to the inside lid of my toolbox.

Good idea. Thank you. What about putting one in plastic bag and throwing it down your seatube if you are long term traveling? Although, I guess at that point, it could be on your cellphone too. Some things are getting too easy and take the fun out of some things like cool lists on the bottom of your tool box!

Last edited by Bike Jedi; 08-02-19 at 12:22 AM.
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