Some might remember that I currently have a bike with a frozen seatpost that I have been battling for a while now. I might’ve mentioned that that bike also had a frozen headset as well. Had, as in, in the past! I finally got the locknut off today thanks to pb blaster and time and leverage from a reinstalled front wheel. I couldn’t believe it when it finally gave way, it was like something broke free. At first I thought my headset wrench had just slipped but no, I went to check and the locknut was loosy goosy. Then when I unscrewed it all and pulled out the fork the retainer cage on the top of the headset exploded out; little pieces of the cage and all the balls just went flying around. I’m thinking someone must’ve installed it upside down, which wouldn’t be a surprise, this bike came to me with a completely trashed bb and crankset along with the broken, cracked & frozen seatpost. Everything that can be wrong with this bike has been wrong 😂.

Sorry, this is not really a question post, I really just wanted to celebrate with you the fact that I got the fork off of this bike! I do wonder how common it is for this to happen though. I suppose I could ask if you all think I should replace the headset but I think I already know the answer to that. But first, I need to get the seatpost out…. I bought a heat gun a while back so maybe I’ll try that.

Also want to say thank you to everyone here for all the help you’ve given me over the last few years. One of my first posts on here was about a stuck headset on an old Schwinn Continental and someone suggested using the front wheel for leverage and I remembered that today which is what helped me get this headset unstuck.

Merry Christmas Bicycle Mechanics!
-Erin

If the bearing surfaces aren't totally trashed I would try reusing the headset but with loose balls instead of caged. A bit of roughness is OK as long as it's not loose or so notchy that you have "indexed steering" which interferes with bike handling. That's just as a stop gap, if the bike turns out to be viable it should probably have a new headset.

your bike was outside for an extended period of time...
EVERY bearing on the bike will need replaced, if any rust whatsoever is seen.

i live in a rain forest, and am all too familiar with your current struggles.

I had one (sealed bearing, integrated headset) which was practically dust when I went to remove it. Wasn’t even that old, a couple of years. And had never been stored outside but I rode it all through two winters back when I thought that was a good idea.

+1. Many recommend loose balls if the cage results in fewer balls. To the OP: The female race (cup) for the headset, put grease in that, it will hold the balls in place while you assemble. To put those tiny balls in place in the grease, I like to use one of those skinny wood flat paddles for stirring coffee. It's non magnetic. A little dab of grease on that, then touch to the bearing ball, lift and place in the bearing cup fully into the grease, slide the wood stick out radially, and the ball stays put. Try to have something underneath to catch a loose bearing ball, unless you have plenty of new ones the same size, so not a big deal to lose one onto the floor.

this is a neat little tip, I’m going to try this, thanks!

Glad to help. Something plastic the same size also works. But not a metal screwdriver, usually they have been magnetized enough that tiny ball bearings will stick to them as you try to slide out after putting the bearing in the grease.

I also use the paddle to scoop out grease from the tub and deposit it in a bearing cup, then trowel it smooth before putting in the bearing balls. A bit neater than trying to use my fingers. Make sure the paddle stays clean so you don't contaminate the tub of grease. Doesn't apply to grease in a tube, but it's usually the same price to buy a tub that holds 5X as much. Any wheel bearing grease (rolling contact grease, not sliding contact like for steering linkages) is fine, and automotive bearing grease is way cheaper than dedicated bike grease. But in recent years I have been using the opaque light green marine trailer wheel bearing grease, used on trailers that get submerged to launch or recover a boat; says waterproof, but most greases are, they don't dissolve with water, but a famous local shop (in rainy Seattle) that specializes in IGH service, they recommend the stuff, but I don't know if it inhibits rust better than regular auto grease. Didn't find at the auto parts store, but did find at the RV supply shop at a good price. Sta-Lube (oh, says New! Improved! since I bought in 2018):

Exactly. The only purpose of the retainer/cage is to make assembly easier at the factory and to prevent putting too many bearings in the HS. Hold the bearings in place with grease during assembly and if the cups and cones are OK, your headset will be fine. And be sure to heavily grease the threads during reassembly.

I always use loose balls on the lower race, because they are the ones that take the heavier forces. I will permit caged bearings on the upper race tho if it is in decent shape.

FWIW, a case can be made for caged bearings beyond assembly convenience. How relevant it might be in bicycle applications has not been established:
https://www.machinedesign.com/mechan...-reduced-noise

I use caged bearings when the cage holds the full complement of balls that race can hold; e.g. as in high-end headsets from Campagnolo, Shimano, etc. If the cage holds fewer balls than a full complement, by all means replace it with loose balls, especially in the lower race.

Link: Good article, thanks! I'll add to my library on bearing issues. I could definitely see, that with a plastic or soft metal cage, there may be less wear than balls sliding against each other in opposite directions, which is what happens between loose balls. However, more balls helps, and I think in an application with low rotation, like headset, loose balls may be ideal, unless, as you said, the cages do not reduce the number of balls at all, or little. It's notable that bike hubs use loose balls, as there are few balls, and cages might reduce that even further. Cup and cone bottom brackets, typically had metal cages, and high radial load, and I think benefited from loose ball with more balls, a number of bike authorities have said that. Preload is critical for good durability on hubs and BBs, I have discovered.

Not always. E.g., vintage Sturmey-Archer hubs use caged balls, and I have pedals from Ofmega and Miche that also use caged balls.

Even there, caged balls offering a full complement are used in high-end bottom brackets.

I didn’t even know that there were cages with the same amount of balls as loose. Learn something new every day on here.

Close, but not exactly. Good cages will have more balls and closer together than cheaper caged bearings, however, the point of the cage is keeping the balls from touching each other (because the cage is softer than the balls), so must be fewer balls; Otherwise, remove the cage and all the balls coming together will leave a gap larger than one bearing.

A rule of thumb for loose bearings is to fill the race entirely, then remove 1 ball. This leaves you with what Duragrouch described in the post above for quality cages. I've been practicing this for about half a century,. It seems to work.

Marine grease - brand doesn't matter. I've never used (or seen) the Sta-Lube grease and have used marine grease both from similar tubs and grease gun tubes. Given how modest the demands made from the enormous horse power developed by quadriceps (yeah right!) vs hours of 70 mph highway speeds, then plunging that hot hub in cold salt water, I don't think our modest little ball bearings care whether you spent $6 for that tub or a gazillion.

No. E.g. 11-ball x 1/4" retainers for bottom brackets hold the same number of balls you can pack in without the retainer. 20 x 3/16" retainers for headsets hold the same number of balls you can pack without the retainer.

i think you need to measure and count your balls, john.
Got any part numbers for those caged ball assemblies you mention?
actual dimensions of the cage assemblies, or the specific applications they're made for?
pics?
Seriously.. i'd love to see them, and order a few!
do the campy antiques fit anything other than antique campy headsets?

here's the pic i see for 11x 1/4" caged BB bearings...PS, it won't fit a standard Cup/spindle English BB assy... 11 loose 1/4" barely fit a cupwith maybe a 1/8" open space..... every std. english BB cager i have is 9 ball count.... the example below fits something else, entirely.
https://cyclebabac.com/product/bb-bearing-2/

on the bright side... i just re-sorted, and more granularly categorized, about a hundred caged ball assemblies, including a few rare old school campy ones i'd forgotten about, and re-ordered some 5/32" balled 1" headset cagers.
most caged assys. are two balls less than loose installs, IME... although some low end ones are two less than that, even... kiddy bike ones.

Since you ask, here's a Campagnolo Record headset, with the full-complement 20-ball retainers, part #2101 as supplied by Campagnolo:


Here is a Campagnolo Nuovo Record bottom bracket, with the full 11-ball retainers, part #2100 as supplied by Campagnolo:

Now, can you show me a Record headset with 21 or more 3/16" loose balls installed, and a Record or Nuovo Record bottom bracket with 12 or more 1/4" balls installed?

For your convenience:

The 11 ball BB cages, I'll buy that, the balls look very close together in the cage. But IIRC, the cheaper cup and cone BB in my folder had 9-ball cages, and the balls were farther apart. I never converted to no cage, instead putting in a cartridge BB. However, notably: Cageless balls are WAY easier to clean to repack; With cages, I need to try to scrub with a toothbrush and solvent. (I miss the days of employment with a complete machine shop at my disposal, with a solvent washer, just put the parts in, turn on, aim the stream, walk away for an hour and they are grease free.) Second, cartridge BBs have no adjustment, so after 6 months when I feel the slightest slack and loss of preload, I can't do anything, and wear accelerates. With cup and cone, I could always restore preload. But, more pain to service. Becoming enlightened to 2-piece hollow spindle cranks with external bearings was a revelation, so many advantage, including readjusting preload in 2 minutes, and sealed bearings.

The 20 ball headset cage... I can see the balls are not close together, there would be a lot of airspace with the cage removed, so would take more balls. Having said that, 20 should be plenty and the cage serves a purpose. I think there is more benefit in going from a 9 ball caged bearing to 10/11/+, as that is a more significant change in the number of contact points. Having said that, even with 9-ball and cages, I noted a significant increase in durability using preload, versus my older way of adjusting, which was the smallest perceptible "slack". Preload spreads the load much better, and there is reference info from bearing companies confirming this; Zero preload leads to spalling on balls and cones from excessive load, as well as ball skidding, causing scoring.

So, can you show me 21 or more loose balls in a Record headset race?

N.B. I've tried it; it doesn't work.

And yes, the 11-ball x 1/4" retainers work in any bottom bracket that uses 9 x 1/4" retainers. I used to buy generic 11-ball retainers from BikeToolsEtc, but their web site seems to no longer work.

And no, Campagnolo wasn't the only company that used 11-ball retainers. Here's a Shimano Dura-Ace bottom bracket that came with them:

https://www.velobase.com/Pages/ViewC...119&AbsPos=131

And an Ofmega bottom bracket with 11-ball retainers:

https://www.velobase.com/Pages/ViewC...=119&AbsPos=89

FWIW, when I rebuilt my old Motobecane, I found the BB contained 7 balls in plastic retainers on each side. I replaced these with loose balls, 11 per side. I actually tried 12 balls in one of the cups (in my hand) to see if they would fit; they caused the shaft to bind. I expect the new shaft to last longer with more balls. Two prior crank axles had worn out since I got the bike.
I was unaware that there are cages that hold 11 balls, but working with loose balls was not difficult.

Nervar bottom brackets used plastic retainers holding 7 x 1/4" balls. As you note, easily replaced with 11 balls, retained or not.

so, to sum up.. the expensive, high end brands use CAGED BALL BEARINGS.

so do "CARTRIDGE" BEARINGS, as bike folks love to call them.

A very interesting twist to this thread!

next up... Integrated, CARTRIDGE Bearings for headsets. ... all the rage... with itsy bitsy, undersized balls in cages, and barely enough grease to keep them from rusting, let alone act as long term lube.

i've seen open cage headsets outlast the bikes they're in, with just an occasional re-lube... cart. headset bearings barely last one season in CX bikes.

start popping those tiny seals and counting... they mostly suck.

Search: Dynamic contact stiffness characteristic analysis of angular contact ball bearings under combined external loads.

tiny balls cause insanely high contact pressures.... and ball to ball contact causes some serious friction, at twice the rotational speeds.

the real problem is a lack of routine re-lubes, using a grease with low flow-back properties. and bad adjustment in either direction, not having a ball or two less.

Early Superbe bottom brackets also had 11 balls in cages.