Disintegrated headset cage
#27
Old fart



Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,316
Likes: 5,226
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
so, to sum up.. the expensive, high end brands use CAGED BALL BEARINGS.
so do "CARTRIDGE" BEARINGS, as bike folks love to call them.
A very interesting twist to this thread!
next up... Integrated, CARTRIDGE Bearings for headsets. ... all the rage... with itsy bitsy, undersized balls in cages, and barely enough grease to keep them from rusting, let alone act as long term lube.
i've seen open cage headsets outlast the bikes they're in, with just an occasional re-lube... cart. headset bearings barely last one season in CX bikes.
start popping those tiny seals and counting... they mostly suck.
Search: Dynamic contact stiffness characteristic analysis of angular contact ball bearings under combined external loads.
tiny balls cause insanely high contact pressures.... and ball to ball contact causes some serious friction, at twice the rotational speeds.
the real problem is a lack of routine re-lubes, using a grease with low flow-back properties. and bad adjustment in either direction, not having a ball or two less.
so do "CARTRIDGE" BEARINGS, as bike folks love to call them.
A very interesting twist to this thread!

next up... Integrated, CARTRIDGE Bearings for headsets. ... all the rage... with itsy bitsy, undersized balls in cages, and barely enough grease to keep them from rusting, let alone act as long term lube.
i've seen open cage headsets outlast the bikes they're in, with just an occasional re-lube... cart. headset bearings barely last one season in CX bikes.
start popping those tiny seals and counting... they mostly suck.
Search: Dynamic contact stiffness characteristic analysis of angular contact ball bearings under combined external loads.
tiny balls cause insanely high contact pressures.... and ball to ball contact causes some serious friction, at twice the rotational speeds.
the real problem is a lack of routine re-lubes, using a grease with low flow-back properties. and bad adjustment in either direction, not having a ball or two less.
#28
Many of the small parts used in Suntour's high-end Campagnolo-lookalike components were directly interchangeable with the Campy equivalents.
__________________
You are always the same age inside.---Gertrude Stein
My aluminum bikes: Light, strong, cheap, and comfy.
You are always the same age inside.---Gertrude Stein
My aluminum bikes: Light, strong, cheap, and comfy.
#29
I know that only because the sales rep brought a sample to show us, since we were already buying the Bullseye sealed hubs. (At the time, Phil hubs had to be sent back to the factory for maintenance, whereas Bullseye hubs required only an Allen key to remove the collars that held the bearings in place on the axle.)
Just did a search; looks like that Bullseye BB may never have made it into production, since all I can find are Bullseye BMX bottom brackets, which appear to be a hot item in the world of high-end BMX equipment. Guessing that when the sales reps showed that radical bottom bracket design to bike shop guys like me without a background in materials engineering, they got a shrug and a "no thanks."
__________________
You are always the same age inside.---Gertrude Stein
My aluminum bikes: Light, strong, cheap, and comfy.
You are always the same age inside.---Gertrude Stein
My aluminum bikes: Light, strong, cheap, and comfy.
#30
Old fart



Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,316
Likes: 5,226
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
The guy behind Bullseye components evidently believed that conventional bottom bracket bearing designs were similarly less than optimal, so he designed a bottom bracket that included axial and radial bearings in separate retainers, for a total of four sets of (smaller than 1/4") caged bearing balls in each bottom bracket.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/st...tation.247216/
#31
Stronglight made a roller bearing bottom bracket, way back in the cottered crank days. Two sets of rollers: one to handle axial loads, the other to handle radial loads. It never really caught on; reports were that it was very fussy about alignment.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/st...tation.247216/
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/st...tation.247216/
#32
Senior Member




Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 7,327
Likes: 3,195
From: NW Oregon
Bikes: 1982 Trek 930R Custom, '91 Diamondback Ascent w/ XT, XTR updates, Fuji Team Pro CF road flyer, Specialized Sirrus Gravel Convert, '09 Comencal Meta 5.5 XC, '02 Marin MBX500, '84 Gitane Criterium bike
Stronglight made a roller bearing bottom bracket, way back in the cottered crank days. Two sets of rollers: one to handle axial loads, the other to handle radial loads. It never really caught on; reports were that it was very fussy about alignment.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/st...tation.247216/

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/st...tation.247216/
those thrust bearings are overkill, IMO.. a plain bi-metal bushing would be enough, i'd think.
the loading is more a twist than a side shift.
tapered rollers see-saw, or "slider rocker", under odd, twisting loadings, are expensive to make, need to be paired as an assembly. and are fairly high drag too.
#33
Old fart



Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,316
Likes: 5,226
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Yeah, that's why I think rollers are more appropriate for a headset than a bottom bracket. Unlike bottom brackets, or other bicycle bearings, for that matter, headsets are not in continuous rotation when in use, so the additional friction is far less pertinent.
#34
Senior Member




Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 7,327
Likes: 3,195
From: NW Oregon
Bikes: 1982 Trek 930R Custom, '91 Diamondback Ascent w/ XT, XTR updates, Fuji Team Pro CF road flyer, Specialized Sirrus Gravel Convert, '09 Comencal Meta 5.5 XC, '02 Marin MBX500, '84 Gitane Criterium bike
automotive U-joints use longer needle bearings, and as many as they can fit in the cups... they are also low rotation, low twisting load, and high friction.
i've watched people try to re-use a cup after screwing one up on a new u-joint... the cups are matched to the assembly, and shouldn't be reused on a different assembly.
the precision bearings honda uses in their transmissions and engines, in general, come in varying tolerances, depending on WHERE they're used... a tight press fit into a casting compresses the outer race... retainer installs were tighter than press fits...etc.
we would carefully measure the crank bearing bores in the cases, after normalizing the case temp, before ordering the correct toyo crank bearings for race engines.






