I'm looking forward to electric shifting
03-07-08 | 10:36 AM
#51
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From: Gaseous Cloud around Uranus
Might as well get rid of those pesky brake parts all together and go electronic there too.Make the whole thing fiber optics,shift and brakes.Have it all run on an ECM.You could have ABS brakes,traction control,valve stem sensors to check tire pressure,it could bias braking...on and on.Can't wait to see how much a tune-up is then.
03-07-08 | 10:41 AM
#52
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Videre non videri
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
Shifting is not a safety issue. Braking is. That's why it's hard to imagine an electric braking system.
If you can't shift, then that's all that happens. You can't shift.
If you can't brake...
But I can see some use for an electric brake assist system. Electric shifting has a much higher priority for me, though.
If you can't shift, then that's all that happens. You can't shift.
If you can't brake...
But I can see some use for an electric brake assist system. Electric shifting has a much higher priority for me, though.
03-07-08 | 10:56 AM
#53
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Bikes: Specialized Allez (2007); Fuji Finest (2002); Trek 1100 (1994); Giant Iguana
I don't think this is being tested yet, but an interesting idea that would be doable with an electric shifting system is to have shift controls set up in more than one location, such as on both the aero bars in addition to the brifters. You could shift w/o having to change positions on the bike.
03-07-08 | 11:05 AM
#54
Fattest Thin Man
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I don't think this is being tested yet, but an interesting idea that would be doable with an electric shifting system is to have shift controls set up in more than one location, such as on both the aero bars in addition to the brifters. You could shift w/o having to change positions on the bike.
I'm no luddite by any means, I'm sitting here in my massaging recliner, typing on my laptop and getting ready to watch some TV recorded on my DVR on a 8.5' wide screen and surround sound.
But I just don't get electronic shifting. Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should. 24" rims on an SUV also come to mind.
Az
03-07-08 | 11:18 AM
#55
cat person
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: N.W. Michigan
Bikes: Nashbar Race SIS (1987), Kestrel Talon (2007), Trek Fuel EX 9.5 (2007)
Shifting is not a safety issue. Braking is. That's why it's hard to imagine an electric braking system.
If you can't shift, then that's all that happens. You can't shift.
If you can't brake...
But I can see some use for an electric brake assist system. Electric shifting has a much higher priority for me, though.
If you can't shift, then that's all that happens. You can't shift.
If you can't brake...
But I can see some use for an electric brake assist system. Electric shifting has a much higher priority for me, though.
03-07-08 | 11:41 AM
#56
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From: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, 86 De Rosa Pro, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
My guess is that when an electronic shift system is built that is embraced by racers, in terms of increased performance with race ready reliability, then it will be ready for for general use and acceptance. Then individuals can make thier choice. Until this happens, electronic shifting will be for casual bikers ala shimano coasting, early adopter techies, and mad scientist build it yourself guys (meant with respect). (cdCF like people I know who went to Chalmers in the mid 80's...goteborg is a beautiful city)
03-07-08 | 12:45 PM
#57
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I just don't see any functional advantage to e-shifting. Its still a deralleur system, which means the limiting factor on the speed of a shift is going to be a combination of cadence and the amount of torque being applied. If you are out of the saddle, pushing on the pedals as hard as you can at a cadence of 70, an upshift is going to be pretty slow, and e-shifting will make it no faster.
Automatic switching between chainrings to get sequential gearing? I don't want that. I'm lugging up a hill and decide to downshift and the e-shifter has to get to the small CR and up several cogs at the same time? Thank you no, I will get on the small CR right before I start the climb.
Shift buttons on the drops? I guess that would be nice to have an extra button to be able to shift while sprinting in the drops, but Shimano works pretty well right now on the drops.
Automatic switching between chainrings to get sequential gearing? I don't want that. I'm lugging up a hill and decide to downshift and the e-shifter has to get to the small CR and up several cogs at the same time? Thank you no, I will get on the small CR right before I start the climb.
Shift buttons on the drops? I guess that would be nice to have an extra button to be able to shift while sprinting in the drops, but Shimano works pretty well right now on the drops.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-07-08 | 12:53 PM
#58
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Videre non videri
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
I just don't see any functional advantage to e-shifting. Its still a deralleur system, which means the limiting factor on the speed of a shift is going to be a combination of cadence and the amount of torque being applied. If you are out of the saddle, pushing on the pedals as hard as you can at a cadence of 70, an upshift is going to be pretty slow, and e-shifting will make it no faster.
Automatic switching between chainrings to get sequential gearing? I don't want that. I'm lugging up a hill and decide to downshift and the e-shifter has to get to the small CR and up several cogs at the same time? Thank you no, I will get on the small CR right before I start the climb.
Again, if you don't like it, just don't use it in the future. If I happen to like it, and see real and useful benefits, then why can't you accept that?
03-07-08 | 12:57 PM
#59
Ferrous wheel
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From: New Orleans
Bikes: 2004 Gunnar Rock Hound MTB; 1988 Gitane Team Pro road bike; 1986-ish Raleigh USA Grand Prix; mid-'80s Univega Gran Tourismo with Xtracycle Free Radical
03-07-08 | 01:08 PM
#60
I would rather see electronics technology applied to something more useful, like the brake-generator/capacitor anti-theft system described in William Gibson's "Virtual Light".
10,000 volts will discourage all but the most determined thieves. Mounted in the seatpost, even moreso.
SeatTaser©, patent pending.
10,000 volts will discourage all but the most determined thieves. Mounted in the seatpost, even moreso.
SeatTaser©, patent pending.
03-07-08 | 02:12 PM
#61
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In fact, it will, and according to what I've read, already has. Not appreciably in every situation, but on average, most likely.
Optional, of course. You could easily have a "mode" button on the shifter to toggle between sequential and regular, and perhaps other shifting modes.
Again, if you don't like it, just don't use it in the future. If I happen to like it, and see real and useful benefits, then why can't you accept that?
Optional, of course. You could easily have a "mode" button on the shifter to toggle between sequential and regular, and perhaps other shifting modes.
Again, if you don't like it, just don't use it in the future. If I happen to like it, and see real and useful benefits, then why can't you accept that?
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
03-07-08 | 02:17 PM
#62
cat person
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From: N.W. Michigan
Bikes: Nashbar Race SIS (1987), Kestrel Talon (2007), Trek Fuel EX 9.5 (2007)
the only people who prefer automatic shifting in cars are soccer moms and drag racers. most avid drivers and entheusiasts still prefer a clutch and a gear shift.
Bikes aren't too different.
and, I was aware of BMW motorcycles. That was my point.
Bikes aren't too different.
and, I was aware of BMW motorcycles. That was my point.
03-07-08 | 02:57 PM
#63
Smiling and Waving
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Merrickville,Canada
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No one's making any converts here today.
For as many advantages you can come up with we can come up with potential downfalls.
Looks like we have to agree to disagree.
ok?
03-07-08 | 03:53 PM
#64
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From: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
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Same concept applies...once racers have an advantage by using electronic shifting, then they will, and it will follow down.
Then there will be those of us (like me
) who like to iuse a clutch or shift move a lever rather than push a button...there will be those whoe don't.....cie la Vie
03-07-08 | 07:06 PM
#66
Any more many road race cars (F1) are using sequentional manual gearboxes. No clutch to shift, just hit the paddle shifter...because the electro mechanical clutching is faster than manual shifting.
Same concept applies...once racers have an advantage by using electronic shifting, then they will, and it will follow down.
Then there will be those of us (like me) who like to iuse a clutch or shift move a lever rather than push a button...there will be those whoe don't.....cie la Vie
Same concept applies...once racers have an advantage by using electronic shifting, then they will, and it will follow down.
Then there will be those of us (like me
) who like to iuse a clutch or shift move a lever rather than push a button...there will be those whoe don't.....cie la Vie
03-07-08 | 07:16 PM
#67
Keeping in mind that I'm a bit of a technofreak AND a mechanic for a living, lets take in a simple bike tour or unsupported long distance ride. Did you remember to bring your charger, add to the list of things you must carry a spare battery? Damn, no outlet to plug my charger into while sleeping/resting along the way.
I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a piece of equipment start up for the last time due to catastrophic battery failure. Granted, these are the more common lead acid batteries found in cars but still something to keep in mind.
Ah, Bluetooth, back to interference. Works real good when it works, sucks when it doesn't. Trust me I love this stuff, pay me now, or pay me later.
CVT may be the better way to go as far as overall reliability is concerned.
I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a piece of equipment start up for the last time due to catastrophic battery failure. Granted, these are the more common lead acid batteries found in cars but still something to keep in mind.
Ah, Bluetooth, back to interference. Works real good when it works, sucks when it doesn't. Trust me I love this stuff, pay me now, or pay me later.
CVT may be the better way to go as far as overall reliability is concerned.
03-07-08 | 11:01 PM
#68
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Bikes: Iron Monkey: a junkyard steel 26" slick-tired city bike. Grey Fox: A Trek 7x00 frame, painted, with everything built, from spokes up. Jet Jaguar: A 92 Cannondale R900 frame, powder coated matte black with red and aluminum highlights.
ScrubJ (and others), the issue is not if it could be done effectively. Finding the energy to power a little thing like this on a bicycle is *easy*. You're already generating energy. Power density is getting greater and greater in batteries and this is not an extremely complex mechanism. Hell, build this into a NuVinci hub and it can generate its own power when it needs it.
Bluetooth seems to work great for me. Certainly more reliable than the cables on my bike. And this is an extremely low bandwidth application.
But none of this matters. It only matters if it's sexier, cheaper, and/or more efficient than existing systems. There have to be reasons for people to spend money on it, and that means that there have to be reasons for manufacturers to believe that customers will do so.
Wordbiker, that's a pretty easy hack, and I've considered it myself. Seems like a good way to get arrested though. Also seems like a good way to forget and wake up beside a bike rack with a very, very sore scrote.
Bluetooth seems to work great for me. Certainly more reliable than the cables on my bike. And this is an extremely low bandwidth application.
But none of this matters. It only matters if it's sexier, cheaper, and/or more efficient than existing systems. There have to be reasons for people to spend money on it, and that means that there have to be reasons for manufacturers to believe that customers will do so.
Wordbiker, that's a pretty easy hack, and I've considered it myself. Seems like a good way to get arrested though. Also seems like a good way to forget and wake up beside a bike rack with a very, very sore scrote.
03-07-08 | 11:19 PM
#69
It'd be worth the lawsuit just for the laughs in the courtroom.
03-07-08 | 11:26 PM
#70
another cat...FAB!
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From: 1st star to the right...
Bikes: Merlin Ti Build, Trek Y-50, Bianchi Titanium Build, Custom Cuevas Road bike
I didn't think I'd say this, but I'm actually looking forward to electric/electronic shifting.
At least if all its potential is unleashed.
1. Position sensing.
Some form of sensor determines where the sprocket is, and micromoves the derailer to the optimal position after every shift. Goes for both front and rear. No more rub - ever!
2. Automatic calibration.
The inner/outer limits and sprocket positions are automatically recorded and set during a setup calibration cycle that can be initiated in a setup mode. Just keep the chain moving at a minimum speed until the setup signals that it's done. Very practical if you often switch between different rear wheels.
3. Friction-like manual mode.
Not really necessary if #1 works fine, but could perhaps be useful. Small dial on the tip of the hood could let you microshift the derailers laterally, without actually doing any full shift.
4. Special!
There's also the potential for a "linear" shifting mode, where it will shift up and down through all usable gearing combinations, in sequence. No longer any need for the cyclist to keep track of specific shifting patterns - the shifting system takes care of it all for you, provided it's been told how many teeth the front and rear sprockets have. Just click UP or DOWN (or something like that) and you'll get your next harder or next easier gear. It could also be possible to program the shifting sequences manually, complete with front derailer first/second order determination.
If the battery can be made to work in really cold temps, it would mean that frozen shifter cables is a thing of the past.
At least if all its potential is unleashed.
1. Position sensing.
Some form of sensor determines where the sprocket is, and micromoves the derailer to the optimal position after every shift. Goes for both front and rear. No more rub - ever!
2. Automatic calibration.
The inner/outer limits and sprocket positions are automatically recorded and set during a setup calibration cycle that can be initiated in a setup mode. Just keep the chain moving at a minimum speed until the setup signals that it's done. Very practical if you often switch between different rear wheels.
3. Friction-like manual mode.
Not really necessary if #1 works fine, but could perhaps be useful. Small dial on the tip of the hood could let you microshift the derailers laterally, without actually doing any full shift.
4. Special!
There's also the potential for a "linear" shifting mode, where it will shift up and down through all usable gearing combinations, in sequence. No longer any need for the cyclist to keep track of specific shifting patterns - the shifting system takes care of it all for you, provided it's been told how many teeth the front and rear sprockets have. Just click UP or DOWN (or something like that) and you'll get your next harder or next easier gear. It could also be possible to program the shifting sequences manually, complete with front derailer first/second order determination.
If the battery can be made to work in really cold temps, it would mean that frozen shifter cables is a thing of the past.
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03-08-08 | 12:12 AM
#71
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It'd be worth the lawsuit just for the laughs in the courtroom.
03-08-08 | 01:08 AM
#72
2 B Frank w/U
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From: Ottawa,Ontario
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If we can use this thread as an example of how popular electronic shifting will be to avid cyclists.Well, only 25% of the respondents are for it.If this is any indication,it will have a very short production run.
03-08-08 | 01:20 AM
#73
03-08-08 | 01:44 AM
#74
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: Iron Monkey: a junkyard steel 26" slick-tired city bike. Grey Fox: A Trek 7x00 frame, painted, with everything built, from spokes up. Jet Jaguar: A 92 Cannondale R900 frame, powder coated matte black with red and aluminum highlights.
03-08-08 | 01:51 AM
#75
I was thinking more of having the jolt occur at 20 MPH...but I'm cruel like that.
Lucky for the thieves I live in a place where bikes don't generally have to be locked.
As for the electric shifting...yeah, I'm all for it. So what if it requires batteries? Anything to push the technology. I'm not stuck in the past, and if it becomes viable and worthwhile...I'd ride it.
Lucky for the thieves I live in a place where bikes don't generally have to be locked.
As for the electric shifting...yeah, I'm all for it. So what if it requires batteries? Anything to push the technology. I'm not stuck in the past, and if it becomes viable and worthwhile...I'd ride it.