hrtmnstrfr

I have 5,000 miles on the chain on my Surly Cross-check. I have only lubed my chain a couple times, usually after I wash my bike (rare) and it is still going strong. It seems to me lube just attracts more grit. Also, the chain on my Bakfiets has never been lubed by me. It does have a fully enclosed chain case, so that helps.

Mike Mills

I once tried a spray-on, dry film molybdenum disulfide lube. I applied it liberally so I knew it was inside covering the rollers, pins and plates. It was totally dry once the solvent was gone. It still picked up some small amount of sand. The reason I didn't continue to use it and don't use it is the chain noise. I can't stand hearing the rattle of a dry chain.

DannoXYZ 

The problem with electrical engineers is they see things in binary terms ON/OFF. Chains are not binary creatures and experiences a wide variety of conditions and loads. The chain-line being bent in on a derailleur bike is a minor variation on wear-inducing loads.

It's obvious that you have not devised a testing-regimen with measurable metrics and followed through with tests under various conditions to determine real-world results. So I'll give you a quick synopsis from 10-years experience in a shop as well as 10-years racing (8 of them 1/2/pro), along with 15-years of riding since then.

Our shop was next to a college campus and we saw a lot of single-speed cruisers, perhaps 80% of the ones coming into the shop were. Most of the repairs were for flats, or seats and seatpost replacements. There were quite a few in for new chains. We'll typically ask them where they got the bike and how long ago. Not surprizingly, the bikes that were ridden off the floor without any chain-maintenance had the least amount of miles on them before requiring a new chain (they usually come in because the chain falls off when they go over a bump). These typically see less than 500-miles before the chain's worn enough to fall off a single-speed cruiser. Not that much difference with derailleur bikes either.

The chains that are regularly cleaned and lubed (we did a fair amount of that as well for lazy college kids), typically last 3000-5000 miles. On my own race bikes, I'd get 4000-5000 miles easily with regular chain-cleaning & lubing. Of course, in the beginning, I too made the mistake of not understanding that chains need maintenance. On my first bike used for campus commuting, it too needed a new chain after the 1st quarter. That was actually how I got the job at the shop, by bringing in my new bike with a worn-out chain.

Mike Mills

You are obviously too young, Padawan. I come from the analog age. Even when I see digital signal, I look at them for their analog components. The world is not digital. That is an illusion we have created for you.

Mr. Underbridge

The "real measurement" is the distance between your nuts and the top tube when you're mashing up a hill. Problem is, that distance has a tendency to go from 2 feet to 0 real quick when your chain stops functioning as intended.

Look, I know you have this thing about abusing chains (based on prior threads), but really, don't. Treat them nice. They're quite necessary for keeping your junk and your teeth intact.

Lenton58 

I've been lubricating chains since I was 10 years old. I've also wrenched on motorcycles in the pursuit of both commuting and racing. The idea of not lubricating moving metal parts whether they be in chains or anywhere else is a totally alien concept. All moving mechanicals run more smoothly, efficiently and with less wear with proper lubrication. This has been studied with huge intensity at the molecular level.

Each chain-link is in essence a moving component suspended and acting dynamically on four bearings — or perhaps more accurately four bushings — each pin bearing two loads. I know of no bearing nor bushing that can sustain an optimally healthy life without lubrication. Lubrication in chains is further complicated by the friction on the side plates. Motorcycle people are cautioned about making sure that these are lubricated as well as the pins. Wear in chains is by consequence of these components found in two areas — side-to-side deflection and linear elongation.

My friend of years ago who ran a racing scuderia in Vancouver, Canada taught his young racers to care for their own machines. Each race day was prepared for in advance by systematic maintenance. One obligatory, weekly chore was to lubricate the chain. This was done by detaching the chain, flushing it in solvent and then immersing it in a tin containing 2 weight oil (that's right, 2 weight not 20). The chains were then hung on a rack and left to drip off excess oil into a tin. The runoff was recycled. My friend had been a racer in Czechoslovakia during the Soviet regime. Every part was precious, and they often had to compete on equipment that was not first rate, world standard. Preservation of what they had to work with was paramount.

The retention of lubricant is always a problem, and yet regular servicing is inconvenient and a PITA — especially if we are working outside without a proper workspace. The motocycle industry has tried to make things by introducing polymer 'O' rings on the pins. These chains are expensive. One opinion is that they actually do not last any longer than a cheaper, ordinary chain that is regulary lubricated.

Here is one formula for periodic maintenance that has worked out as a happy compromise — for me anyway. Clamp or flip the bike over so that you can rotate the cranks. Find a thick rag (old toweling seems the best) and soak it in kerosene (paraffin). Diesel might work too, but I've not used it. Or WD-40. Grab the chain so that you are pulling against the derailleur tensioner (on a multi-speed bike). Rotate the chain and watch all of the crud getting swept out of the chain. By moving the rag around from the side plates to the rollers and back again repeatedly the chain will get acceptably clean. Then apply fresh oil making sure each link is well soaked. Next, get a clean rag and rotate the chain again. You will absorb much or even most of what you applied. But the oil that is retained will be more than enough to ensure good lubrication. After your first ride, you may want to wipe again as oil will have run out from underneath the rollers.

The advantage here is that this method, while not being perfect, is so easy and effective that you will not be so hesitant to do the maintenance on a more regular basis. It takes just a few minutes each time, and it is so much easier than running the chain off the bike and doing a complete job.

makeinu

Here I found a few nuggets of wisdom from the master:
I want to hear from these experts because, obviously, Sheldon and I are of different religions in this regard.

cody k

man you just dont get it do ya ur brain is stuck on not oiling the chain, you wanted to hear from the experts on it so they told you and you dont like what u are hearing so why start a thread like this? i am a mechanic a heavy equipment operator and a welder have my own business been doing it for years please find someone better who knows dirts metals and what lubricants can do who knows more then me, iv seen it all, here is some more scenarios for ya like pins on an excavator if not lubed they wear out way faster the dirt gets in thier and with metal to metal it just grinds away with lube the dirt stil gets in thier but they still last 50times longer beceause with the lube in thier the dirt cannot grind away the metal beceause it cant get traction to catch the metal to grind it away it slides instead of grinding like spinning out on ice its the same with your chain, you could not do more harm to you chain then having the dirt get in thier with the metal to metal rubbing together, wheather thier is oil on the chain or not the dirt is still getting into the chain, and with my old engines thier is more dirt then rust on the pistons and the oil loosens and cleans the dirt out of thier s it will come out, and also like a transmission in a car with no oil it becomes inefficient and does not work properly then it quits so with no oil on the chain how can it work properly it cant it becomes inefficient it grinds causing friction then it gets wet and dirt in it then it starts to lock up and bind, and you cant tell me that it does not do that beceause i have been thier and done and seen it, thier was a guy who worked for me that was like you never greased his machine it was wearing out the pins and stuff was breaking on a brand new kobelco 250 excavator he lost his $25 an hour job over it caus he was to lazy to lube it up

sam83

I had a 4.0 cumulative GPA in college (4 D's and an F).

Since I'm the closest thing to an LBS around here, I've put on new chains for myself and quite a few others over the years.

Now, I've never had any problems with chain wear on my new bikes and regularly get 4,000 or so miles out of a chain. I lube my chains with Tri-Flow every few weeks (or after getting wet) and wipe them down before riding. I generally wipe them down in between rides as well to remove any accumulated grit and dirt.

As I mentioned, I've had the occasion to replace chains on other people's bikes, at their request, with some unfortunate results. With the "old" chain, (that would be the one that did not need to be replaced based on "practical value") the drive chain functioned with no perceived problems or loss of efficiency. However, with the new chain, the chain would skip on the smallest rear cog. Indeed on one bike it would skip on up to the 3 smallest cogs.

What happened is that these chains had been ridden beyond their specification (easily measured), and when that happens, it accelerates the wear on the cogs. Their cassettes were shot. At that point, they had two choices; 1) Get a new cassette (or cogs). Or 2) replace the old chain, ride it to it exhausts its' practical value and then replace the entire cassette and probably the chain rings as well. (Mind you, I'm not tuning for a racer.)

It only makes sense that any insufficiently or improperly cleaned and lubed chain will suffer from friction wear (either metal on metal or dirt on metal) at a rate higher than if otherwise cared for. Your cleaning process could have left some residual amount of lubrication in the important nooks and cranies (Some of that stuff on a new chain is hard to cut!) , but it will get contaminated and loose it's properties over time. The thing is that you don't really notice the effects of chain wear until it is too late to save your drivechain.

With much more cog surface area on a SS cog (as well as probably more teeth than a 11t, 12t or 13t on a cassette), you may be able to abuse it over a longer period of time or over multiple chains, but if your chain is beyond spec, your cog and chainring are wearing prematurely.

Practically speaking, lube or don't lube. But do yourself a favor and measure your chain regularly.

mike_s

Actually, it's exactly the opposite.

z415

Huh?

As for the original topic, lube or don't. The rest of us shouldn't care.

The day when people start vehemently arguing about such personal matters is when I know that the more serious issues discussed in p&r will, sadly, never be settled and as such, the world is screwed.

Mike Mills

Like I said, it's just an illusion we've to given you. There are many facets to the illusion. You have found one of them.

sam83

With all the posters whipping out their engineering degrees I thought I'd toss out a lame joke. A guy making 4 D's and an F is also not smart enough to know how to figure cumulative GPA, does it the wrong way and boasts about it thinking he's smart.



4.0 = A
3.0 = B
2.0 = C
1.0 = D
0 = F

4 D's and an F = 1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0+0 = 4.0

Never mind.

makeinu

Have you ever considered the possibility that those chains just needed to be tensioned? I bet that chain wear didn't even have anything to do with it and all you needed was some of these:

DannoXYZ 

The chains were adequately tensioned when they left the showroom floor so as to not have enough slack to fall off over bumps. Obviously, only when the bikes stopped performing, such as when the chains started falling off, they brought the bikes in for service. You tell me what changed in the chain to cause it to lengthen and fall off when all the other variables, like rear-wheel distance to chainring remain fixed?

Just get out of your head and do some real-world testing with empirical data. It's like arguing whether the Earth is flat or round. It's impossible to come to any conclusion without collecting real-world data.

Bat22

My chain took a real beating from road salt mess last winter.
I missed a step and oiled it, not cleaned it and put away my winter commuter.
It was so kinked up this year, I couldn't run it through the gears.
I soaked it overnight in finish line degreaser and scrubbed it with a brush
the next day. The rust just stayed on that thing.
I just backed out and put on a new chain.
(I post on the commuter forum)

No-T

I think you are confusing o-ring chains with non o-ring chains...perhaps. You've mentioned in this thread a few times about the factory lube and it being there for life and good enough to last, which could be true as long as you don't clean it.
If you clean the chain (non o-ring)in a manner to which you described then you are completely removing all the lube on this chain, internally and externally. I haven't ever personally seen an o-ring chain on a bicycle before so maybe you have one and all this arguing is a moot point? Even if you didn't clean your chain, that lube is going to break down and become useless; or riding in the rain is going to clean it out for you.
I'm amazed at your chain life and I would be even more amazed if there was no extraordinary wear/stretch/elongation in it or you cog based on your stated cleaning and non lubing process. Since it is singlespeed you may not notice a big difference in bike operation until the wear becomes too much and the chain starts slipping up over the teeth.
Mechanical parts, on a bike especially, can take a beating before final failure. Around the OSU campus here I see chains covered in rust and they still work even though they sound like crap...You may not notice anything unless you actually start doing checks for wear.
Take a few pins apart on your chain and see if there is wear. Compare your sprockets and cogs teeth with that of new ones. Metal to metal creates friction which creates heat which creates wear....fortunately on a bicycle you aren't creating large amounts of stresses. Try not lubing a non o-ring chain on a motorcycle and see what happens

makeinu

Axles slip in horizontal fork ends. In my experience you need tugnuts and you need to tighten them after you tighten the axle nuts because if you tighten the tugnuts before the axle nuts it will still slip.

Not to be a jerk, but I can't say I'm surprised at your attitude as a bike mechanic because whenever I bring my bikes for work at an LBS (to save myself time) I have to end up readjusting the drivetrain myself at home because those clowns don't know how to do it.

Nonsense. I have a perfectly good conclusion: My chains work as well as I can discern from the saddle without oiling and, thus, I don't need to oil them.

While I may want to reevaluate this conclusion if my next chain doesn't perform on par, at this time there's nothing further I could possibly derive from additional testing because I already have a solution which performs to specification.

Mike Mills

It seems your mind is made up and was made up before you posted.

A lot of good info was presented herein. Admittedly, a lot of the info herein is from people's experiences with derailleur-equipped bicycles. You remain unconvinced by it. Do as you please. No one can stop you or force you to do anything other than what you decide to do.

DannoXYZ 

Again, your lack of in-the-field experience shows here. What happens if the axle-locknut isn't tight enough? It pull the RIGHT side of the axle forwards and you end up rubbing the tyre on the LEFT chainstay well before it's loose enough to skip the chain off the chainring. How would you feel about bike-shop managers telling you how to design EE circuits? Would you take their advice that to improve performance on ANY and ALL circuits, that all you have to do is increase the voltage?


Also your lack of EMPIRICAL MEASUREMENTS shows black & white, all-or-nothing thinking. There are existing standards in the industry and 1/16" elongation between 12 links is commonly accepted as the replacement limit. Have you actually ever even measured a chain? If not, you have no data to work with to come up with your invalid conclusions. Using "works as well as I can discern from the saddle" is NOT a quantifiable and repeatable experiment that can be duplicated by others. You don't even have measurable specifications that can be used to verify your conclusions.

sam83

How about humoring us with a chain measurement?

makeinu

em⋅pir⋅i⋅cal
–adjective
1. derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, esp. as in medicine.
3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

My measurements are perfectly empirical. I looked at the chain and observed that in my experience it performed it's function without being oiled. That's empirical.

What we don't have are measurements which are objective, repeatable, or quantitative. However, those specifications are not necessary in this case because:
1. We don't have any equations to relate such quantitative numbers to the design goals. Whether it's 1/16", 10/16", or 100/16" elongation it doesn't make any difference if the number can't be used to compute something of practical value (such as the expected number of miles left before failure or the increase in rider exertion).
2. I'm not interested in duplicating things for others. So taking extra steps to ensure that my observations are repeatable for others is a waste of time.
3. I'm already content with the performance and oil makes a mess. Dedicating time to testing chain oiling would be like forgoing toilet paper to see if it would improve my plumbing (which already works fine).


Let me put it this way. Suppose I were to conduct an experiment to measure an objective quantity like chain stretch and found 3/16" of elongation. Would it mean that my conclusion that chain oiling is unnecessary has been invalidated? Obviously not. Since the end goal is that the chain perform its function, conclusions regarding the necessity of chain oiling can only be verified or invalidated by an actual success or failure to function. So if I were to measure 3/16" of elongation it would not invalidate my conclusion, but rather it would invalidate the relevance of elongation.

So the experiments and tests you are proposing are not tests of the veracity of my conclusions, but rather tests of your theories relating elongation to function. Therefore, since I am only interested in chain function, and not your theories, I have absolutely no intention to test them.

Please note that this position is not inherently black & white. The same reasoning is equally applicable to the influence of chain oiling on rider exertion (which I do happen to be interested in), but in the interest of brevity I've stuck to simpler topics.

Mike Mills

You got this part right regarding this thread.

I reitrerate:

Do not feed the troll.

Mr. Underbridge

You have the collected experience of many man-millenia of cyclists who have learned that an arbitrary measure of 1/16" is a good, safe point to ensure that you don't ruin cassettes or your teeth. I do statistics and algorithms for a living, so I should sympathize with you, but even I realize that sometimes you don't need equations, you just need to learn from the experiences and mistakes of others. Most people don't like to re-invent the wheel time after time, but you're the exception.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to understand things, but you have zero experience wrenching and it shows. Hell, I don't either. That's why I don't argue with the experienced wrenches around here who know things I don't. I listen to them and value their advice.

I don't know why you're so fascinated with chains, but please to continue to *not* clean/lube them, and by all means continue to break them with pliers before reattaching them. I'll refer you to a good dentist or urologist when the need arises.

sam83

So you don't have to ask this same question here in the near future:

https://www.bikeforums.net/singlespeed-fixed-gear/499340-new-chain-noise-problem.html