Al1943

In hot weather do your wheels smell like honey? I don't need to attract any more dogs.

Retro Grouch 

I build the sweetest wheels around.

hybridbkrdr

I'd like to know if anyone can answer the following. There are spoke calculators out there but are there nipple length calculators? How in the world can I know which nipple length to use? There's often a choice between 12mm and 16mm (and 14mm on some European sites).

I haven't received the Tiagra rear hub and WTB Freedom rim yet but my best guess from the info I have is that I might need 286mm and 288mm spokes.

FBinNY 

You've stepped into a pile of crap, and are about to get a bunch of conflicting opinions. Here's mine FWIW (certainly more than your paying).

The spoke should reach well up into the head of the nipple which can act like a nut and transmit the tension to the rim. If the spoke comes up short of the head, then the threaded, thin walled, tube section of the nipple will be in tension, and they've been known to break. Since the spoke is reaching the head, the nipple length no longer matters, except for the issue of how far the nipple can thread before bottoming out.

I use short nipples, matched with spokes so that the spoke can come past the head by about 2mm. That gives me a safety margin and allows me to safely use spokes calculated to be fully engaged within 1mm of the top of the nipple.

mrrabbit 

1. When your ERD's aims for the screwdriver flat of the nipple:

- You can use 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm standard brass nipples with boxed 9.5mm threaded spokes.

2. When your ERD aims for somewhere between the screwdriver flat and the top of the head:

- You can use 10mm and 12mm standard brass nipples with boxed 9.5mm threaded spokes.
(14mm becomes risky - especially with drive side or disc side.)

3. When your ERD aims for a mm below the screwdriver flat of the nipple:

- You can get away with using 16mm standard brass nipples.

This can be avoided entirely by using an ERD that aims for the screwdriver flat or slightly higher and using a spoke machine like the Phil to roll an extra 2mm of thread by cutting...stopping...setting behind the cutter 2mm inward and then rolling. (I do this alot...)


I prefer that my wheels have spokes that reach the screwdriver flat of a standard nipple AFTER my target tension has been achieved. That means I've covered the minimum of the thickness of the rim plus another 1mm. That makes for a solid fastener setup.

=8-)

clarknick67

that's might be true.

hybridbkrdr

I looked at wheels that were already built (department store bicycles). Anyway, there are no threads showing on the spokes. When you're truing a wheel, is it better to have a wheel with a bit of thread showing or no thread at all?

Let's suppose I bought a spoke length calculated as well as I could but decided to buy at least one spoke longer and one spoke shorter to test. What could I look for to confirm I got the right length?

FBinNY 

Structurally it doesn't matter if threads show. After all it's necessary to have unused thread on a spoke the same as it is on any screw. The issue is that thread showing is unsightly, which is one reason nipples aren't threaded their entire length, but have unthreaded skirts to hide the unused thread. Another consideration is that with typical spokes and nipples, thread showing usually means the spoke isn't reaching the head of the nipple, and that's not good.

There's no way to confirm exact spoke length from one or two samples. You have to build the wheel and see how it plays out. Spoke calcualtors vary a bit in their answers with the same input data, and published ERD's aren't always reliable. I make it a point to always use the same spoke calculator and measure the ERDs myself. this way I know the bias and can reliably adjust the answer and have spokes end up just shy of the top of the nipple every time.

This won't help you on your first wheel (build the front first) but when finished note where the spokes ended up with regard to the top of the nipple, and factor that into future calculations.

hybridbkrdr

Well, I just tried using the same wheel with the busted rim to look to see if I can thread down the nipple. As a matter of fact, I can. I threaded it down to where the nipple is actually right below the rim. This means when the spoke/nipple are proper length, there's still some room between the top of the nipple and the end of the spoke. So, does that mean some people here are wrong when the say if the spoke calculator says let's say it's 289.5mm to round out lower? I mean, if you round out lower, you'd be farther away from the top of the nipple wouldn't you? If you rounded up to 290 instead, then you'd be closer. Isn't that where you want to be?

toddbiker

I remember reading on the web and also confirmed by my LBS that rounding up or down in over all spoke length was contingent on spoke diameter. Example...thin double butted vs.
heavier straight gauge spokes. I think the thinner spokes get rounded down (shorter) do to their stretch.

FBinNY 

Which way to round is a judgment call. To know which way to round, you have to be familiar with the calculator. If it tends to give lengths at the short side of perfect, round up, if long round down. Also where is your margin of error. As I said earlier I want spokes to end up short of the top of the nipple, and I know that the spokes and nipples I use can thread 2mm beyond the tops. That means I have the room to round up and prefer to do so rather than have the spokes come up short.

Since this is your first wheel and you're flying blind on precisely how it'll work out, round to the nearest spoke size, either way.

hybridbkrdr

Cool, thanks for answering. I think I'll take measurements, try out different spoke calculators to see if I get some kind of consensus. Then I might want to try rounding up but will buy one extra spoke 1mm above and below the length I chose to test after I'm done truing the wheel. That way I'll have a better clue as to how close I came.

FBinNY 

Don't bother with the extra spokes, and certainly don't tamper with the wheel after it's finished. If nothing else, that's bad karma. You'll know whether you could have gone longer or shorter when your finished just by seeing how close to the top op the nipple the spokes come. If you're not good with eyeball measurements stick a paper clip into the nipple and gauge using your thumbnail.

Batavus

Nice generalization there. Novatec hubs are definately not the same as Formula. Formula hubs have a slightly better finish. There are tons of riders out there beating the crap out of them. The consensus is that if you don't care about bling, streed cred, etc, a set of formulas is the only thing you'll ever need in a fixed gear wheelset.

I personally ride a Novatec rear hub and while the finish looks a bit cheap, the threads are perfectly machined, the axle is straight as an arrow and the bearings roll as smooth as you would expect from standard cartridge bearings.

BTW, go with the Kinlin rims. Affordable, light and stiff. Besides Mavic rims crack after a year or two, haven´t you heard?

peugeot mongrel

Great thread. Very helpful. The only trouble I got into on my first wheel was rounding nipples when I was tensioning. Right quick I started being more careful. I hope I got it good enough. It's been riding fine but I think I better check it again.

mrrabbit 

Not a generalization...well aware the Formulas aren't the same - just that too many people consider 'em as such - encounter it at shops I deliver wheels to quite frequently. The Novtec based track hubs are simply attrocious...

Overall all those hubs above mentioned are crap - the Formula version is better overall - better threads, axles and bearings - however the locknuts have a tendency to crack.

As to your name - reference to the Batavus bike and motorbikes right?

=8-)