unterhausen

I put one of those bikes together for someone. The derailleurs are about the only part that really works on that bike. Note the plastic chainguard. Riveted chainrings are the next step up from that. I've never seen such horribly un-true wheels on a new bike. I think the Denali can occasionally be had for around $100 on sale. It's amazing what another $100 will do for you at that level
I stopped working in a bike shop in the early '80s. It's really hard to imagine that the pieces of junk that were sold as BSO's back then cost over $300 in today's dollar.

Back then, you could get a Shimano Eagle rear derailleur for $10. It was a great replacement when someone's Schwinn Varsity stopped shifting. The BSO's often had an Eagle clone that worked reasonably well. I've always had a lot of respect for Shimano's low-end derailleurs.

Bezalel

The "Shimano Equipped" decal is usually a good indicator of a BSO.

CaptCarrot

Having read this thread a bit more slowly, I would hazard to say there is *no* definative answer. One mans bike is another mans BSO.

At the end of the day, it boils down to use. If it is used regularly, it is a bike. If it is sat rusting in the corner of a garage because it is cr@p, or is only used twice a year for fear.of theft or damage, it is a BSO. That beimg said, al ot needs os a change of owner (or circumstances) to change the desognation.

dabac

Note that I wrote "cost of purchase at store".
And there's your statement of "not being an investment in the monetary sense".
When it comes to hobbies, people do what they think they afford to do, and only they can say if it's "worth" it.

But for me, if I had a somewhat weathered BSO with no emotional strings attached, I'd think really hard before I spent $50 on repairing a $100 bike. If there's one more repair within foreseeable future, the added cost of something like 3-4 McDonalds Combo meals would get me a brand new BSO instead. Sounds like a better deal to me.

(Now, as I have the skills, and the inclination, what I really did was to collect a couple of discarded BSOs out of dumpsters, ditches and hedges. 3 abandoned bikes were enough to assemble one working unit. It gets a modest amount of use in the immediate vicinity - everybody should have a bike they dare to leave locked up at the train station. And I've been lucky so far that I've found new bikes at a sufficient rate to keep up with attrition.)

biknbrian

What about the ability to select diferent frame sizes as a way to define some basic level of quality? To me that seems to be a good indicator of when a bike becomes worth owning.

Kimmo

Why'd you assume it was metal? CaptCarrot cracked it, but mine was the '95 model with the ally fork. It was bitsa spec; full details on Velospace if anyone's interested.

Had such a sexy paint job.



IMO there is a definitive answer: BSOs don't even rate the "Shimano Equipped" decal. They are of noticeably lower quality than what was long regarded as the cheapest standard of engineering appropriate to a bike.

In fact, any use of the term 'engineering' in connection with a true BSO seems laughable.

Below the 'cheap and nasty piece of crap' level lies the BSO. They are junk when new.

CaptCarrot

Yes. I agree with you to a certain extent, but as I said before... Ones mans bike is another mans BSO. Change of ownership or circumstances are the only things that can change designation.

What YOU class as crap and as a BSO not worthy of the term bike, is probably used day in and day out and run into the ground by someone who thinks it IS a bike.

The point I am making is it is does not matter if it is "cheap and nasty", "middle of the road" or "expensive and elitist" - It only becomes a BSO when it is not used regularly for its intended purpose. If it is used regularly, then for all intents and purposes, whether it cost $50 or $5000 it is a bike.

UberGeek

My dad's bike cost $85 new. 2000 miles later (He put on), 75 miles (I put on), one fatal accident, and it's still going strong; only needing new tubes and some chain oiling.

It's due for a chain replacement soon.

dwellman

I completely understand your question. I would say that if you can determine at a glance what the components are (make/model) then I say leans toward "real" bike, but by then you're guaranteed to 1) be a an LBS, 2) have that 1 in 1000 bike at a dept store that costs $300 plus (saw a bike at Target with SRAM X3 all over, Cane Creek headset. . asking $320 for it). For me though, I glance at one thing and one thing only: Shifters. Trigger over GRIP/Revo. Ergo/STI/DoubleTap. Jury still out on MICROShift, but I have a feeling they're not terrible ( I wouldn't turn down a donor / evaluation set, for sure)

A lot of components at the lower price points (say, RD-2300 vs RD 3400 vs RD-4500) are basically the same and you're lesser quality finish, getting more steel instead of aluminum alloy.

Prefer minimum Altus or 2300 level (anything SRAM). Cassettes are better than freewheels. Prefer threadless headsets over threaded (1 1/8 sized just easier to work with now-a-days parts-wise), prefer cartridge bottom brackets over traditional cup and cone. Tektro brakes are fine. KMC chains are fine. Kenda tires are fine.

But all that is meaningless if the frame sucks. Good thing is, that's less or a probability. . at lower prices you'll get something closer to overbuilt than not, just heavy-ish.

LesterOfPuppets

Fatal accident? Sorry for your loss...

LesterOfPuppets

Good gripshift stuff is awesome also. Light as can be and lasts forever. My SRT 600 shifters are 16 years old and still shift great.

I was beginning to get concerned about availability of high quality gripshift going forward but luckily Kulhavy won with Gripshift so 10-speed Gripshift should be hitting shelves pretty soon.

There's something to be said for friction DT shifting also. Cheap to replace and in a spot that's hard to destroy in a wreck. Good for riders on a budget that are rough on their road bikes.

Kimmo

Well, the only folks who call what I call a BSO a bike are ones who don't call anything a BSO.

Unless they use your definition, which is even cuter and gets at another issue entirely. I think you're beside the point with it in this thread, though.

Myosmith

There is something to be said for $100 used bikes if you are careful in what you look for. This summer I was looking for a "real" bike on a budget and a LBS owner showed me a chrome-moly 700c hybrid with entry level components on sale for just under $900. The other option he suggested as I like to wrench was to get just the frame and fork for $400 and build my own. Neither was a bad deal but I had my own idea. I bought a very used but well maintained Trek 700 for $35. The frame is double-butted chrome moly and both it and the fork are perfectly straight with only minor cosmetic knicks and scratches. I stripped the bike to the frame saving the headset which was still in good condition. So far investment of $35 and a couple hours of leisurely labor for a high quality chrome-moly frame and fork that fit me very well. With some careful searching, trading, swapping, here is how the build went:

- Shimano UN54 BB (new)
- Shimano Alivio 48/36/26 crankset (originally purchased new, swapped from my other bike)
- Shimano Deore LX rear derailleur (used but in good condition purchased from bicycle co-op, swapped from my other bike)
- Shimano Exage 300 front derailleur (cleaned and serviced the one that came with the bike)
- Basic 700c double wall, 36-spoke aluminum rims laced to Shimano hubs (new, likely to be upgraded in the future but sufficient for now)
- Bontrager 700c x 28 H2 eco tires (bought on sale)
- Aluminum Profile Design stem and flat bar (purchased from local bike co-op used but in excellent condition)
- Deore LX shifters (found 1/2 price, new)
- Deore brake levers and v-brakes (new)
- Aluminum seat post
- Entry level Bontrager road saddle (new but purchased for $10 from LBS as it had been swapped for a comfort seat on a new bike)
- Ergon GC2 grips (swapped from my other bike)

Total cost on the build was <$500, including the original cost of the components swapped from my other bike, for a total so far of $535

The leftover components were cleaned and serviced and replaced the components swapped from my other bike, a 26" Giant Yukon that I had originally purchased used for $45. I sold the Yukon for $175 which even considering the few new parts left on it (cables and brake pads) my profit was approx $100.

Final cost of the project about $435 for a brand name, double-butted chrome-moly frame and fork with Deore/Alivio level components and mid-level post, stem and bar. A few scoffed at spending $400 on a $35 bike when I started the project, but, with the exeption of a few minor scratches and nicks, the finished bike is every bit the rival of the new $900 bike and has some higher level components. I still have a handful of parts and components left over from both this build and the original build on the Yukon that will go onto a flip bike which will be sold to further reduce my net expenditure, but that will wait for spring.

rydabent

Good grip shift??? My Stratus came with Sram 3 RD and Sram 5 grip shift. It shifts flawlessly. You almost never hear any noise from the shift at the rear, only the click of the Grip Shift. I have since upgraded the RD to a Sram 7, and of course it shifts just as flawless. At this point I am totally in support of Sram. These Sram componets shift better with less fuss and noise than any brand I have ever used.

Back to the title of the thread---------if "real" means quality, up to a point you get what you pay for. After that mid point, for the most part all you are paying for is a name, and maybe a few less grams of weight.

cyccommute 

A quality bike that sits in a corner unused is still a quality bike. Even if it's 30, 50 or 100 years old, an experienced eye can see that it's a quality bike. A 'bicycle shaped object' is a bike that someone may ride out of necessity but they don't necessarily ride it for pleasure.

Like someone else said here "you know a BSO when you see one". If you say "nice bike" and mean it, it's probably not a BSO. If on the other hand if you say "nice bike" to be polite, it's a BSO.

For example, this is a BSO



This is not



Both are dual suspension bikes but one is a pleasure to ride and is capable of off-road use. The other isn't. I'll leave it to the reader to determine which is which

dwellman

I think there's some pseudo grip shift floating around. . not SRAM Grip, but the knock off stuff. Worse than Revo (which are easy to crack).

Monster Pete

I've ridden several bikes that fall into that description- riveted (or at least non-separable) chainrings, generic Shimano SIS claw derailleurs and the like. Sometimes I think these things are just an older design that doesn't look as flashy and maybe weighs a bit more. My Raleigh Scorpion is an example, ridden into the ground first by my dad and then by me. Not once have I had anything go out of adjustment, fail to shift properly or otherwise break in use.

gyozadude

I've dealt with those. I think Falcon brand shifters comes to mind. The difference is like crispy buttery toast, versus soggy bread that's semi-rubbery from nuking too long in the microwave!.

gyozadude

If the goal of this thread was to learn to spot the problem areas on bikes and avoid buying bikes that have a very high probability of having issues down the road, then I do have a list of things I look at when shopping:

1. New bike must have metal hw on brakes and brake centering adjustment screws and stops. Lots of dirt-cheap BSOs suffer from plastic-pivot-spring centering stops. These crack, deform, then fail to hold the spring adjustment screws, and so the brake drags. BSOs also have brakes, that have cheap cable or noodle stops. These are not hardened steel or aluminum and bend with just thumb and index finger pressure. I've serviced plenty kids brakes where either the noodle failed or the square pivot cage holding the noodle failed. So I look for quality on brakes, brake stops, brake pads, brake pad screws, etc. Because if these aren't trustworthy, then I have no choice but to replace them. Best not to buy them at all.

2. No cheap decorative suspension components - e.g. Cyccommute's pics on the pseudo-suspension looking gizmos in the top pic. Hate them. They only serve to rob energy and stability. Better to get a hard tail with fixed fork on a frame than pseudo-suspension. But for downhilling and technical off-road, man, good suspension is to die for. But it doesn't come cheap.

3. Headset and BB are serviceable. New headsets on new bikes MUST all be threadless. If they aren't, it's usually a BSO with the cheapest, and worst indexed steering that will eventually befall the rider of that bike. And it usually means a cheap quill stem that corrodes, is 5X too heavy and slips under duress. BB needs to have some ribs on the inside of the cups these days like it's an octo, or isis bb of at least some serviceable standard. Otherwise, it's probably an old cup/spindle style that really needs to have chased/faced cups and machined, hardened, heat treated spindle races. If the BB doesn't look like I can remove it with the tools I have in my tool bin, I avoid it. And I have tools for some pretty cheap BBs.

4. Seat collar bolt and frame. New bikes in the mid-range should have no frame braze-ons or welds for a seat post clamp. It should be all detachable seat clamp collar. if it has a old steel 1/2 to 11/16 nut/bolt, most likely, over time, if you need to adjust your seat, the metal at the seat clamp will bend or break. A real braze-on clamp looks like it was really done right. Beefy and clean, and preferrably like it was lugged and formed as one continuous hunk of metal.

5. Drop out thickness - If it's less than 5mm for steel or steel insert, and less than 8mm for aluminum w/o insert, then I avoid the bike. It just won't grip or hold it's alignment well. That's just the nature of the frame. It also means less meat for rack and fender screws into the metal. And when really torquing down on the lock nuts or QR to secure the rear wheel, it won't hold or it will deform the dropout. Vertical dropouts, or thick horizontal ones with rear chain adjuster screws are clear signs of better quality.

6. Alloy rims and stainless spokes - BSOs almost never have these in combination. I look for it and have learned to quickly spot galvanized UCP spokes versus stainless. But it's a clear sign you're stepping up from a BSO when you have stainless spokes. But moreover, another giveaway that you're dealing with a higher quality wheels is symmetric lacing on the spokes. Many machine laced wheels, are not mirror image on each side (i.e. symmetric). Rather, the trailing spokes are inside on the freewheel side, and outside on the non-drive side. Not a big deal, but under torque when honking, it can cause lateral pull of the rim into the brake shoe.

If the bike doesn't have these, I'm pretty likely to cross it off my list as a BSO.

Artkansas 

Easy, until it's ridden, it's a bicycle shaped object. When it's ridden it's a bicycle. The transformation is miraculous, the bicycle comes alive.

UberGeek

This looks like a good check list

mikeybikes

This is the only point I disagree. There are some decent bikes that still come with good, threaded headsets. For example, a Breezer Uptown.

hybridbkrdr

There is a trend for example now where manufacturers are still making comfort bikes with threaded headsets. I don't know why. I've been looking at various manufacturer's websites for a couple of days now and it looks like some of them simply play "copy cat" with each other. I don't know whether that has to do with the fact some choose the same companies to make their frames or what. It's a little odd though in that they're not giving you much variety (like mountain bikes with rigid forks or higher-end hybrids with a rigid fork and V-brakes etc.).

Monster Pete

What's wrong with a threaded headset? Before threadless headsets, every bike had a threaded one. The fact that threadless headsets exist doesn't make a threaded headset 'bad' in any way. Personally I think they're easier to work with and adjust. Likewise for BBs. A good cup/spindle one is still good.

cyccommute 

I'll agree that threaded headsets aren't necessarily an indicator of BSO status. But BSOs do tend to have threaded headsets.

I'll have to disagree that they are easier to work with and adjust, as well as disagree with you about bottom brackets. When was the last time that you swapped 2 forks from two different bicycles (without changing the crown race) and the whole job took 10 minutes from start to finish? Can't do that with a threaded headset.