Dear friends,

Below you will see the bike in question: a 1971 Gitane TdF that I bought new back in the day.



Somewhere around the Spring of 1975, I drank heavily of the Kampy Kool-Aid and decided that I just had to have a Campagnolo NR rear derailleur. You can see it on the bike.

What you might also notice, however, is that it is sitting at an angle that just isn’t right. And that, in a nutshell, defines my problem.



As many of you know, the Gitane TdF came with Simplex dropouts, which do not have the stop-tag required by a Campy RD. SO, me thought, I’d have it ground to match a Campy dropout. So, back in lovely 1975, I went to a guy who said he knew what he was doing. Sadly, he didn’t. He did a butcher’s job that can barely be seen in the photo below.



The original solution was to never use a freewheel wider than 24t. I find that a bit harder these days, but the RD simply cannot go bigger because of the angle.

While taking it to a proper framebuilder to either cut off and replace the dropout or otherwise do major surgery would be the optimal choice, logistics rule that out.

SO, my questions are:

1) Can I just bolt, for example, a Suntour hanger on there and just adjust for the wider RD swing required?

2) Are there any repair options, such as a metal adhesive, by which I could add back some of what has been ground away?

Thoughts, opinions, comments and suggestions welcomed.

Thanks.

If you want to stick with vintage derailers, none of these use that stop because they have their own built in.

First generation Campy Rally

Shimano Crane

Simplex Super LJ

I have the Rally on my own butchered PX10. The Simplex SLJ 6000 on my Gitane works well and would solve your problem, but they're hard to find and pricey when you do. I have no experience with the Crane.

The stop tab on a simplex dropout is in a different place than on a Campy. Obviously moving the tab forward is easy with a file, but moving back requires a fill.

If the frame is going to be painted, I braze a piece of scrap behind the existing stop, or simply build it up with brass.

But otherwise I work cold.

JB Weld, or plastic steel isn't strong enough, plus there are adherence issues, so I drill in with a 2mm drill and set a piece of spoke in for structure, then ill with JB-W, or whatever, and file to the angle I need. If you're good, this is about a 10 minute jub, not counting curing time of the epoxy, and will last the life of the frame.

Early Simplex dropouts have no stop tab at all. Maybe you are thinking of Huret dropouts that have the stop in a different place. Otherwise, I don't know what you are talking about.

You're right, I was thinking of the Huret, or other French dropouts. I was thrown off by the photo, where it appears someone might have cut and filed to make a stop tab, but maybe too far forward.

If there's enough meat, the OP can cut and file, if not he can fill. Either way the main thrust of the post is still relevant.

I believe the OP's frame has those early Simplex dropouts, otherwise there'd be no need to grind the hanger to fit the Campy derailleur. Later versions had a stop to accommodate Campy and similar derailleurs:



I still have a pile of these dropouts from when we did frame repairs for Gitane. If the OP wants one to replace the damaged one on his frame, I'm sure we could work something out.

There's no need to replace the dropout. If the OP clamps the dropout in a large vise, with the hanger sticking out, the vise jaws will act as a heat sink, and he can ad a bit of brass, to push the stop position back. While he's there he can braze or solder in a thread insert so he doesn't need the nut in back.

Otherwise he can do the cold solution I suggested in my first port.

Gentlemen,

As always, a wealth of knowledge and you each clearly have nice workshops. I wish. Too many moves across too many continents.

Indeed, this bike has the old style Simplex that had no stop at all. And, yes, it was ground down by an idiot that this idiot trusted.

Moreover, the bike is off in middle USA. I just had the pleasure of putting a couple hundred miles on it, which gave me the resolve to figure out something to make it work better.

I DO have a weak-necked Rally in the box. I hadn't thought of that derailleur as a solution, but I'll pull it out to inspect.

I don't have the luxury nor access to it to do the major surgery. I also no longer own any torches or welding gear.

BUT, would it work to bolt a standard old-fashion dropout hanger right on top of the existing dropout?

Whatever I actually do will be on my next trip out to middle USA (the bike is in my mother's basement), and I'd rather be riding it than doing major surgery. BUT, whatever it takes is sorta what I have to do.

I do not wish to refinish it. I think it is glorious as it is -- presuming I can sort out this little mess!

Thank you, again, for the thoughts and suggestions.

:-)

Nut in back? his hanger has been tapped. There's no nut. What kind of derailer uses a nut in back?

There is one more option that i would suggest, modifying the der. I have filed then drilled, tapped and installed a machine screw into the cast stop on the back side of the upper knuckle that butts against the drop out tab. Much like the SunTour ders of then had. I used a M3 bolt (actually a Campy do adjuster and spring) for the angle adjusted bolt. The filing on the der stop was only to get a flat that is square to the adjuster bolt making it's drilling that much more easier.

I only did a few mods before I moved onto Asian units which shifted, IMO, far better. The only one I have left is the remains of the one that got caught up in the spokes of the wheel and was twisted and torn apart. here's a shot attempting to show the mods. You'll see the cast tab on thknucklele has been filed and there's a remains of the threads still showing.

With this mod i was able to change the der angle and therefore the gap between the guide pulley and the cogs. The main reason i mention this (for the first time in 3+ decades) is that a der is easier to replace then a drop out... Andy

If the weather is still nice when you next visit the bike, here's a quick short term fix, that will let you ride it and put off fixing until later.

tear off a piece of quality bond paper. Roll it into a small ball, pop it in your mouth and chew it until it compresses to a firm ball about the size of a pea. Pull the RD back, pack it into the gap between the RD and dropout stops, then push the RD forward to trap it.

It may take you more than one try to get the exact angle you want, but once you do, you're fine. Just be sure to pack a piece of clean paper along with your spare tube in case you lose the pea when you pull the RD back to remove the wheel.

Another solution would be a Simplex SX610. They shift better than your NR, bolt right on and have their own built in stop. You can find them cheap. I've never paid more than $20 for a clean used one.

The PX10 on the left has the Rally and the PA10 has an SX610.



Here's an SX610 on a Jeunet.

Seems to me the easiest solution would be to modify the part of the derailer that rests on the tab.

Gentlemen (& absent Ladies),

Thank you again. GB, what I see in this photo is what I was asking, about an external hanger. That SX610 isn't connected to the dropout but to the external hanger that may have come with the derailleur. So, do I understand that just a C&V style hanger, such as this or the more easily found old Suntour type should work, yes?

I also like the spitball tactic. This one will require a really large spitball, tho. :-)

Owen

Maybe. Try it.

That dropout is not the same as you have. It's a stamped 3D dropout with no integrated hanger. It's much thinner than your forged dropout.

Hmm. Yes, it is. Well, it would move the derailleur out, but if the RD adjustment allows it to service the largest cog it might work.

It's gonna be one of those wing it situations, me thinks.

Thanks, yet again.

Careful. I have a Gitane TdF with exactly the same issues as you. I am using a Simplex SX630 (substantial all-metal upgrade to the SX610) rear derailleur that works with the old Simplex dropout. It is mounted using a bolt inserted through the back of the derailleur hanger.

The derailleur barely struggles to cover the width of a 6-speed cogset. If you were to mount this derailleur, or several other vintage derailleurs that I can think, of to an adapter as shown in the pic, then it would not be able to reach to the bigger cogs.

More modern derailleurs, designed for the longer travel of 8+ speed operation, should work with the adapter.

Thanks. Exactly what I was thinking. This beloved old warhorse has barely a single original part, although beyond cables not much is newer than about 1979. I have a couple old gems in my parts box that I might use, including:

Shimano Ultegra RD-6500 GT
Suntour SVX GT RD-7400
Sachs Quarz RD long cage
Suntour Cyclone GT
Campagnolo Rally (weak necked 1st version)

The Sachs is leading in my thoughts at the moment, but I think whim and bemusement will guide me on the day.

It and the Ultegra would probably have the widest travel capacities. imho.

:-)

The adapter should cost about $5. It will clamp on outboard of the old derailleur hanger. There are several types of these, so you'll want to choose carefully to ensure what you select does not interfeare with the existing hanger. You may have get a longer rear hub skewer because the adapter will push this out a bit.

I have a personal motivation to get you to try the Ultegra first, because I plan to put some Ergopower shifters on the Gitane for shifting convenience. In a pure coincidence, Campy (newer version) 9-speed shifters will index over a 7-speed cogset using a Shimano rear derailleur. I have already upgraded almost everything else on the bike, so the shifting is the final step.

Owen, I believed I have a brand new Simplex SX610 (if I don't mistakenly identified it with my limited knowledge) , the only missing is a plastic pulley that I took out to put it on my Simplex prestige on my PX-10 that you helped me to restore.
Please send me a PM with your address, I will happily send it to you.

Owen,
i got your address, I have less than 50 posts so i can't reply by PM.

I confirmed it is a SX-610, I don't think it was ever mounted, It has scratches since last year because I put it in the junk box.
Unfortunately, I don't see the RD hanger, google search return a lot of RD SX610 without the hanger as well. I have a Falcon 5 DR with the hanger may be you can try. I will send both to you tomorrow.

BLASPHEMER!!!



-j

Thank you all. As this will be one of those repairs done on the fly (literally, fly in and hope to be riding w/in a few hours!), I'm open to all options.

I do think that I will plan for a "proper" repair to be done later, when the bike is moved from middle USA to my current home. I'll do the drill and shim first and only if an actual refinish is considered, then perhaps replace the dropout with one from John (we'll need to chat, eh?).

In the meantime, it is so great to be able to get this kind of advice and feedback. I appreciate it very, very much.

Cheers to each of you!