mongol777

Confused a little bit here. I got Shimano 600 (Ultegra 6400, came with biopace rings) crank set - https://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=115&AbsPos=1. On the spindle and velobase it says 115mm but when I measure it end to end - it is more like 122mm. So when I go to my LBS tomorrow to buy sealed shimano BB - which one should I get, 115 or 122?
As it sits right now (on original spindle) - it gives me desired 52mm chain line on outer ring so would like to match it exactly.

mongol777

Read more on Sheldon - mine is asymmetrical so I need to figure out symmetrical length replacement. Going to measure DS first.

mongol777

And velobase references 113mm as correct symmetrical spindle. So even more confused now - why actual spindle length does not match stamped size?

Andrew R Stewart 

Did you measure the RH spindle extension beyond the fixed cup before taking things apart? if you had, duplicating this measurement would be easy when looking at the new BB. How did you measure the old spindle? Ruler, caliper? End of spindle to other end? The discrepancy between the stamped (115) and your measurement (about 122) makes me wonder what's going on too.

Bring in your spindle and ask the shop to sell you the same and see what that one is before you leave the shop. Bring in your measuring tool too. Also many older loose ball spindles were not symmetrical in the bearing to end lengths. Most modern Bb's use spindles that are symmetrical. So just going by over all length might not get you the chain line you hope for if your old spindle is off set WRT the bearings. Lastly the amount that the arm pulls up on a spindle will be a touch different as the tapers are slightly different from spindle to spindle. This is why Shimano started to use a collar stop sleeve, the arm would butt up against it, insuring a better chain line dimension control. More then a few times a year i find that i remove a BB, after matching it's size with the worn out one, and go to another spindle length to get the crank best positioned.

If you're the installer you should ask the shop their exchange policy before you go ahead. Andy.

mongol777

I have very good relationships with LBS so exchange will not be a problem plus I can always use spare BB. Cranks are going onto a different frame (same BB shell width so I only need to make sure I have clearance for chainring I intend to use). I measured using the caliper, as you look at the below picture, from right to left: end to end ~122, from DS 31/53/32 (I know it does not add up, will re-measure in the morning and will for sure bring it with me). What also makes me wondering - this is how spindle was installed on the donor bike (DS is on the right in the picture, yet it is visibly shorter than NDS).

mongol777

Markings on the spindle:
D-5H LH
Lug width 70
Length 115

mongol777

1-2 mm off the chainline will not bother me much - it will be single speed build, not FG. I know approximate chainline at the rear - first gen of Paul's W.O.R.D. hub which I believe gives ~52mm chainline. So my plan for now:
1 Re-measure in the morning with fresh head
2 take old spindle with me to lbs

Andrew R Stewart 

I don't know the bike this is fitting in but the old spindle is for a 70mm shell width. Ital bikes are the most common that have this spec. Most all Asian, Eng, French, Swiss and US bikes use a 68 shell. Perhaps this bike was hacked together with what worked, not what any one manufacturer intended. Andy.

mongol777

Interesting! I never actually measured donor frame BB shell - just assumed it was 68. I guess "Lug - 70" means bb shell lug - learn something new everyday! Frame is Columbus Cromor, it is 1988 Miele Gara. I am borrowing crankset (have another exact same in the mail coming) to put it on Miyata Terra Runner which has 68mm shell (this one I measured just to be sure).

mongol777

And Gara was not hacked for sure - I got from original single owner (he even had bill of sale, etc) and it has full Ultegra 6400 Tri Colour (cranks, hubs, brakes, shifters, derailleurs, headset, brakes and levers - only seat post and stem is not Shimano)

Andrew R Stewart 

Make sure you also bring in the cups with you to the shop! The Miele could very well have a 36x1 threading. While made in Canada the miele brand was very heavily influenced by Ital bikes. I don't recall well enough to be sure but i suspect Miele is one of the exceptions to my previous comments about shell size.

Miele's were like English made Raleighs. If you got a good one they are nicer then many give credit to. But it's easy to get a Monday morning one (or as i use to say about Raleighs, one built after a 4 pint lunch...) Andy.

mongol777

I love Miele - several went through my hands but I honestly never saw 4 pint lunch one. I did see quite a number of not so perfect Gardins and Steve Bauers (two other brands that were made and/or assembled here locally) but Miele - not even mention on the forums. I'd love to hear more if you had bad experience with Miele frame.
For whatever reasons (may be because it was local and because some people think they are actually Italian) - during last couple of years their price was going up like crazy. And even entry level ones command premium here in Toronto. I saw repeatedly similar equipped Miele was going higher and sold faster than equivalent Bianchi of the same era so go figure.
Gardins on the other hand - hit and miss. Most I saw were very mice but saw quite a number with bad lug work, etc

Bill Kapaun

A "5" series has a "middle" measurement of 55mm as per Sheldon-
https://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

Maybe your measurement "technique" is having an effect on your overall results?

Andrew R Stewart 

I was in the best position to see the worst of the Mieles. I had a shop in Cleveland years ago that I bought from an older guy who had opened a second shop near by. He was not much of a business man or bikie, open hours as he cared and only sold second/third tier brands. I was the new kid in town and was making a name for my frame repair skills. So I had a number of various brands that were sold by other shops come into my shop for estimate/repair/aligning or just to have the owners complain. For the low number of Mieles sold I saw a bunch, some in response to the call from the older guy before the customer had picked up the bike. Misalignment of the rear triangle, poor threading prep, warped seat tubes, crooked brake mounting holes were the problems I remember most. But the bikes looked very nice what with their Euro styling and chrome. After a few years of selling the brand he moved onto another fancy but under the radar one. During this period i was told that the Miele factory was heavily supported by the government during it's start up and that the work force was not well educated/skilled/motivated/paid. This business model was what came to haunt the brand and in the end they didn't survive the market place. I probably have some of the details wrong, not being there and only hearing rumors. But i believe that my basic understanding holds water.

Now i'm off to lead the club ride in our Finger Lakes. I'm bringing the rain jacket... Andy.

mongol777

I am clearly an idiot and had a huge brain fart yesterday - went down to garage in the morning and it is 116mm!

mongol777

Wow - thank you Andy, much appreciate the details! If I don't forget - I will find an article about Jim Miele and post link to scans here.

mongol777

What's in stock and my desire to ride it today made choice real easy. I picked up two UN26 untis - 113 and 117.5
113 worked perfect for my application, chainline is straight as an arrow, good clearance for cranks and chainring. Quick measurement put chainline at about 41.3mm
If I were to put gears on it and go with double or triple - 117 would fit for sure, 113 would be too short.

Thank you everyone for your help - made me very clear on BB measurements, something I did not really put a lot of thought into it as most of my builds were perfectly re-usable loose ball bearings BBs or external BBs with plenty of adjustment.

JohnDThompson 

fify...

fietsbob

yea, 70 wide shell suggests Italian thread BB ..

Andrew R Stewart 

John- I'm sure if i had the Ital. taps for my Campy tools i'd never make this mistake again. Andy.

mongol777

Did Shimano ever produced Ultegra 6400 with Italian thread? Just curious as Gara sits complete at the moment and BB is super smooth so not going to replace it. I did borrow cranks from it (as I mentioned to put on my Miyata Terra Runner) but I have exact same crankset on the way in better cosmetic shape

mongol777

I mean Shimano 600 BB

fietsbob

Italian bike companies buy Shimano components .

so Shimano makes the stuff to suit those customers.

JohnDThompson 

Sure:

mongol777

I am so glad I got brain fart yesterday and opened this thread - learned many new things, you guys are awesome!
Finished Miyata - went for quick 10k ride to test it out. Smooht as butter, quick and comfy. Chainring is what I had around (old beat up sugino) and it feels rough (but new one should arrive soon). Will be my daily bad weather and slow rides with missus bike: