miamijim

I've never read a single fact about any other touring bike that would make it better than a 1000. Miyata built alot of companies bikes which says alot about Miyata. Did Specialized make their own Expedition or did they out source?

In regards to the 'other side of the story'.....lets here it. We're not going to becasue there isnt. Keep in mind that I extolled the virtues of the Miyata without saying a single negative thing about any other bike. Good products sell themselves.

Awhile back there was thread about frame quality with many of use posting pictures, if I posted pics of the inside of a Miyata frame you'd probably guess it was from a high low volume Italian builder.

I've owned Panasonic built anf Nishiki built bikes and can tell the finishes are not a good as Miyatas.

Jim

afilado

Jim:

Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to alienate or argue with you. I'm not saying the Miyata 1000 isn't a superior bike. Or that Miyata as a company wasn't/isn't a leader in design, materials and craftsmanship.

I am saying that I don't like the idea that the 1000 is so good that others are "not even close". Or that Miyata production bikes are better built than "most" of European custom-built bikes. And other such dramatic proclamations.

I don't know the other side of the story. I'm asking you. I presumed that such strong feelings for the 1000 must have arisen from a broader review of others similar to it. If the Miyata is superior, that opinion certainly must be a comparative one.

I acknowledge that you never directly criticized other marques. And that's not what I'm soliciting, at all. But just reading Sheldon or reading and repeating marketing material extolling the virtues of splined, triple-butted tubes doesn't necessarily support anyone's claim about the 1000 being absolutely at the top of the heap.

if splined tubing is superior why don't more use it? I expect it's because they think their best ideas are different but just as good.

Literature is insufficient to support any ultimate claim.

Perpetuating a myth that the Miyata 1000 is the absolute best is by necessity a criticism of the 'shortcomings" of all others.

I've never owned a 1000. Or even ridden one. Have you? I've only seen a few first hand, and read about them.

I have owned a 912, a Team Pro and several other Miyata bikes. They are consistently high quality in many respects. I have owned Panasonic, Nishiki, Lotus, Centution and Fuji. Panasonic and Nishiki produced fantastic touring-specific bikes. All the others have their proponents. I've seen some mighty fine English touring bikes. A friend rides a Geoffery Butler that could stand with the 1000.

The Fuji Touring Series V is every bit the equal of the 1000 in my estimation. My experience tells me so. Fuji, top to bottom, year to year in their line up, produced bikes that equal any and all Miyata. This takes nothing away from Miyata.

I'll drop this before I irritate feelings, which was never my intention. As I said, my contrarian nature gets riled with the continued, unquestioned kneeling at the "throne of a king" who was appointed and not elected.

I'm not tearing down Miyata, I'm saying there are other GREAT bikes, especially the seemingly overlooked Japanese ones of that golden age. It's a tough task to extoll one over all others?

Thanks again for the enlighenment. Apologies for any misunderstandings. Respects all around. Now, back to regular programming. ;-)

Best,

Julian

wrk101

I have a Fuji Touring Series IV, an older Trek 520, and a Miyata 215ST. I consider the Miyata to be head and shoulders better than the others: fit, finish, overall construction. I would rate the Fuji second in this list.

I can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 is over my lowly 215ST.

High Fist Shin

The Univega Specialissima and Miyata 1000 do not share the same frame. Miyata built the Specialissima for Univega following designs supplied by Ben Lawee, Univega's founder.

Same as above. Not the same frame, but built by Miyata for Univega.

High Fist Shin

+1

Many of you have seen my Miyata 210 touring bike before:



I've never had the chance to ride a 1000, but I can tell you that this lowly 210 has a ride quality that impressed me mightily on it's first long ride with BF friends in Ohio.

I too can can only imagine how much better the Miyata 1000 would be.

afilado

...."head and shoulders"........"lowly".......sheer poetry, man. How about selling that raggedy old Touring IV to me, it's gotta be affordable.......;-)

RobbieTunes

I have to say, if the 1000 lug work is that much better than the Two Ten, it must be awesome. Machin Shin's Two Ten is really put together nicely.

miamijim

Julian,

I know your not arguing and I hope I'm not coming across that way. Perhaps 'not even close' was dramatic but that was the intention.

The thing is that Miyatas virtues can be easily seen and explained. You simply cannot do that with any of the other mass market touring bikes.

What makes a 1000 a great bike?: (this blank can be easily filled in)

What makes a 520 a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

What makes an Expedition a great bike?: (fill in the blank)

Keep in mind that I'm not saying the 520 and Expedition arent good bikes, they are, but they dont have anything that makes them a better bike than the 1000. If they did the 520 and Expedition fan boys would have chimed in by now.

As far as my knowledge of Miyatas: I worked at one of the top Miyata dealers in the country from '84 until they pulled out of the U.S. I've built and overhauled well over 100 Miyata 1000 touring bikes. Mr. Miyata visited our store and I have a picture of myself with him and our sales rep.

I've owned 2 Pro Miyatas and a '1 off' Miyata Trail Runner that was custom built in Japan. There was only 1 built for each size, I owned the 18.

In regards to high end, low volume Italians...I have 3 sitting next to me, none have the build quality of a Miyata.

I work on these bikes, I get my hands dirty.

Jim

miamijim

Julian,

In regards to splined tubing....other comapnies make it, Columbus SLX is splined. Miyatas way just flat out expensive, they were splining steerer tubes, fork blades and chain stays!!!!

Jim

purevl

Jim, I have a question.

I have a Koga-Miyata and a Univega Gran Turismo (which whether it's the same bike or not, you'd be hard pressed to tell it apart from the 612 in the catalogues) so I've done a fair bit of reading of the available Miyata literature: Miyata catalogues, Koga-Miyata catalogues, fact sheets, blogs and forum posts. The only time I've ever run into the statement that the tubesets were drawn specifically not just by model but even by size is in your other posts. The tooling costs for that sort of thing would have to be tremendous, so one would imagine a company footing that bill would make some noise about it. I've noticed that some K-M bikes at least have the same frame specs between models (in the catalogue) with the price differences made up in the components. In fact, several of the good Japanese makers seem to do just that: build quality frames along the whole lineup and save money in the components on the cheaper ones, so that sometimes a frame can span one or two models and only differ in components and braze-ons. I don't doubt the veracity of your statements, I only wonder why I've not heard them echoed anywhere, even by other Miyata afficionados like T-Mar and Elev12K. Maybe I've just missed it, in which case could you point me to a description somewhere? It seems like in the catalogues I've looked through they make a big deal out of saying they draw their own tubing (and rightly so!) but I can't recall having seen a description of drawing each individual model and size.
Thanks,
-Tyler

rothenfield1

I'm finding this thread interesting reading, although it's probably running out of thread. My feeling is that what we are arguing about is the quality of the frame. I would bet that there are not many bike makers that have control from smelter to showroom floor today the way a small number of companies did in a golden era from about 1979 to 1987. My understanding is that Mr. Miyata started out as gun maker. If you have the wherewithal to mass product rifles, you are going to be able to mass product a pretty good bike tube. Today, most of the mid to lower end bike frames are probably made in the same Chinese plant with a different decal slapped on it at the end o the line.

Sure there are expensive boutique frames then and today that are probably as good. But, in the late 70's the exchange rate dropped to a point that the Japanese could produce a high quality product that the US market could afford. By the late 80's, the exchange rate had reversed and most of the frame making was done in Taiwan.

So, if we are arguing about the best mass-produced, affordable touring frames ever made. I would have to say it's going to go to something 80-87 Japanese steel. As far as sticking up for the Expedition; as a proud Exp owner, I would have to say it s the plushes ride I've ever experienced. But I've never ridden a Miyata, or a Fuji for that matter. There seems to be some mystery about who actually made the Exp. frame. For all I know, it was Miyata. If that's the case, 2 of the 3 so-called best touring bikes ever were made by Miyata.

Jim, you won me over. Thanks for the fun read.

Jeff

Exit.

I've read somewhere on this forum that the Specialized Expedition is a Miyata 1000 bought from Miyata and rebadged. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm sure I've seen that somewhere.

miamijim

Tyler,

I understand what your saying and your right, there isnt specific information in print, that states different frame sizes received their own specific tubes versus a standard tube being cut down. Thats information I heard directly from first hand sources who have visited the Miyata factory in Japan or worked for Miyata. Miyata rewarded their top dealers with trips to Japan, the owners of the shop I worked at went 4 or 5 times.

Keep in mind that Miyata manufactured thier own tubes, it wouldnt be a big expence for them to change the 'draw' cycles for a run of tubes.

As far as what they built for other companies, who knows. What do we know as fact about what Miyata did for other companies? The only factual information I heard from a reliable first hand source was they built frames for Univega but they weren't to the same specification. In other words, they weren't 'rebadged' Miyata models.

afilado

Respects but I think your statement re the bottom of the line Miyata
being "head and shoulders better" than a Fuji Touring IV speaks as much
to your objective powers of judgement as to the relative quality of the bikes.

BengeBoy 

My memory is probably failing me on this, but -- back in 1983 when I was shopping for a new touring bike it came down to a Univega Specialissima vs. a Miyata. I went over the frames braze-on by braze-on, and couldn't detect any outward differences. I do believe the brakes were different; otherwise they were the same (except for the brake mounts, as I recall - the Miyata I was looking at might have had different brakes).

My impression, purely as a customer, is that Ben Lawee (Univega) was an exceedingly smart packager and marketer of bikes, but I'd be surprised if he had an engineering team drawing up designs for the many, many models of Univegas that were cranked out in the 1980's. I have always assumed he went to the Miyata factory and worked on orders for rebadged Miyatas. The thought that Miyata would source different tubing for its frame customers would be surprising to me, too - why wouldn't they take advantage of the additional scale to get longer production runs of the same tubing?

Is it possible that there was a super-secret sauce in some of the tubing that Miyata didn't want to share with its customers? Yes. Is it likely that all of the frames that Miyata made for customers were made from inferior tubing? No.

I have no direct knowledge, just extrapolating based on sourcing experience I have in other industries.

purevl

Fair enough, nothing can replace first hand experience. It just occurs to me that if Miyata drew these super-specific tubes, that would make them the only company to have ever done that. Maybe their marketing department sucked.

afilado

Well, there you go again. Your broad wash, dramatic statements for effect are little more than opinion.
For you to say "you simply cannot do that" in making a case for the quality story on other production bikes is just nonsensical, Jim.

It's nice that you have a picture with Mr. Miyata and that he spent lots money entertaining dealers. And your credentials as a wrench are solid.

I know you like the 1000. But your defense of it is filled unnecessarily with hearsay, PR hype and exaggeration.

Of course, that's the nature of the bike business. Puff-filled, neon bright stories to keep the starry-eyed public buying the next "best" thing.

I've never seen the slightest bit of evidence that drawing tubes in house makes a frame the "best". Or that spirals in tubing makes it the "best".

I repeat, I agree that the 1000 is a great bike and Miyata as a company did/does a lot of things right but anyone's claim that there is no other bike or company that rises to the same realms of quality appeals only to the naive. So too any proclamation that any one bike is the "best"

I continue with the opinion that the Fuji Touring V is every bit the equal of the Miyata 1000. It is constructed and finished as nicely, it is appointed and equipped as nicely and it rides as nicely. What's the big deal, sharing the podium? ;-)

Cheers,

Julian

miamijim

What I know about the bikes and company comes from sources closer to the company than anyone else on the forum can claim for their information. To be honest, I dont know what your looking to get out of me and I realy dont care.

The thing is is that you cant tell me why the Fuji is just as good or nay other bike. There's nothing wrong with sharing the same podium if you deserve to be on the same podium.

Its time for you to put up or shut up. Step up to the plate Julian, instead of chillin' back sippin' whatever trendy drink your drinkin' step up with some information. Your claiming that others are just as good...back it up. Dotn trash me and tell me I'm full of ****.....my visions good, I can read between lines.

I'm done with this thread, I know what I know and what I know is that you have no f'ckn clue.

Peace.... my contribitions are done. Y'all can give Julian big internet high 5.

purevl

(emphasis mine)

Not to pick nits or anything, but how do you know?

I'm a big fan of both Fuji and Miyata, and I can understand where you are coming from but I think you are letting your own biases get just as involved, if not more so, than miamijim's, and wasn't that your whole point?

afilado

Well, it started out one thing and wound up another.

My point final was to try to puncture the idea of a "best" bike. That seemed pretty clear, I thought.
Miamijim and Sheldon think the 1000 is "best". I don't think so. I don't think ANY bike is "best".
I think that some people like this one and others like that one. The rest is hype.

And I try to remember we're just talking about bikes. Hardly something worth getting
irritated and start name-calling strangers. LOL!!!

I'm just trying to engage people and encourage some entertainment among ourselves.

BTW, I clearly state in the same sentence you question me on that it's my "opinion". I hope that answers your
(completely forgivable) "nitpick".

Thanks for the heads up. On reflection, I'm not happy with the way things turned out. See my
final note to Miamijim, whose friendship I would like to keep.

Julian

afilado

Shame, Jim. I'm not drinking anything. I never said you were full of anything. I never became personal in any respect. Keep it on bikes, please.

I am sorry for my part in making you upset. I hope you will forgive my misplaced enthusiasm. I
actually learned a lot. I'm happy to leave it a "potayto/potahto" thing with you.



Cheers,

Julian

Squeazel

Back to Miyatas--

The Specialized Expedition *is* a Miyata 1000.
The Univegas were made by Miyata with Miyata tubing and everything, but I'm not certain that the geometry is exactly the same. I know that my Univega Gran Turismo had the identical derailleurs, wheels, etc that the Miyata 610 of the same year had, with the addition of front rack mounts. The chainstays seem shorter, tho.

ScottRyder 

Knock it off boys .. we all know that the "best" touring bike is the one that sits under our ass when we need to get from point A to B, carrying X amount of weight in the worst type of conditions imaginable and get us up the last hill. And it's so, so good, that we look forward to jumping on that bike to doing it all over tomorrow. Day after day, after day.

Scott

afilado

And which one is that for you, Fujiman? ;-)

J

ricohman

To bad it is such a tiny bike.
Why is it most of the Miyata's I get to see are so tiny?
I had a blue 86' and I wish I still had it. I'm looking for one to add to the "collection" now. Hope my ex-girlfriend is still enjoying it!
Anyway, the 1000 is a fine bike but since I've had a 1000 and a Nishiki Continental that is one year older and I've toured on both.........
For me, the better riding bike is the Nishiki hands down. The double butted tubes of my Continental seemed to always give me a better ride than the 1000. And tires made no difference. The bike just handled better loaded down.
On my last 80's run to the Ice Field Parkway I stood in front of both of these bikes and decided which one I was going to ride from Regina to Jasper.
And I chose the Nishiki. Still have it.