Frogbutter 

Howdy All!
As you read in the title he asked me to make an offer on this frame from eBay.
I am going to post two links, the link to the first thread I started in the C&V forum and the link to the closed eBay auction.
I am looking for opinions on what is this bike worth and any other opinions you may have about the frame.
I am only going through all this because the frame is...

1. My Size
2. Not something you see at every club ride

Links:
First thread about the frame.
Closed eBay auction.

Any help would be awesome!

Cory

wrk101

I would start with an offer of $75. Pretty much any nice frameset is worth that, this is a pretty one, and something you want. And I would be prepared to just offer him the $99. I would prefer to go through ebay on it, have him make you an offer through there, so you have the protections that ebay provides buyers. Personally, I would rather pay full starting price through ebay, than $50 through some private transaction.

When it is something I really want, and have been looking for a while, I am not opposed to offering over market to get it. So lets say you just offered him his opening bid. And lets say with shipping that's $50 over market. So what? That's really nothing to get what you want.

Guy has very limited feedback, so I would definitely do the transaction through ebay (not just through paypal). Its not like you are going to take him to small claims court in Poland (I assume you do not live in Poland).

+1 To below: with high tensile stays and fork, the frame is lower end.

I would also like some better pictures, with some closeups. But again, if you just like it, go for it. Not every bike needs to be some high end specialty. I like the decals, badging, color, and build features myself. Its a pretty bike. I can see why you might be drawn to the frame.

Bianchigirll 

I don't understand, did he ask you make an offer before the auction closed? that violats the rules yes? why didn't you bid on it?

since the starting bid was $99 I would offer $105, when I put a starting bid that is usually pretty close to the price I want for the item.

it is a nice looking frame and yesw something you don't see everyday.

JunkYardBike

If I were you, I'd hold out for a Professional. Sure, it might cost a $100 or so more, but you'll get a much better frame. I like the Batavus marque as well, and it is a pretty frame, but did you read the tubing decal? It's got high tensile (HT) forks and stays. Even if you talk the seller down to $50, tack on the $40 shipping and you're at $90. You can probably find a better frame locally for the same price.

On the other hand, it does look nicely constructed with decent forged dropouts, and it's got eyelets for racks/fenders which the higher order models lack. Eyelets don't always translate to room for wide tires, or even much room for fenders, but if that's one of your criterium (get it? yeah, i know the correct word is criterion), ask the seller for some measurements.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with high tensile tubing, but in my experience it offers a 'dead' feel, which also incidentally means it smooths out rough surfaces. However, if 'get up and go' and climbing ability is important to you on a club ride, I'd find something a bit more upmarket (i.e. 531 tubes/stays/forks, Columbus SL tubes/stays/forks, Ishiwata 021 tubes/stays/forks).

bikemanbob

I think the frame looks great, and the price is not bad, but do you want a Dutch bike that was made in Japan? (Everything would seem to indicate that it was made in Japan). If the country of origin doesn't bother you, I would buy it. For me, it not nearly distinctive. For me, I wouldn't pay more than $60, but I'm a cheapskate.

There are others far more skilled than me to tell you about the country of origin, but Ishwata steel, shimano dropouts, and tange would indicate Japanese origin. I think the Japanese stuff is great, but do I want my dutch bike to be Japanese?

I do believe that Batavus name is hard to find, but if you persist, I believe you can find the right one. I enjoyed conversing with you and I hope my comments are received in the manner that I intended--to be helpful. Thanks for asking for my help.

JunkYardBike

Sorry, but the origin of the frame tubes and parts has nothing to do with where the frame was constructed. Reynolds, Columbus and Ishiwata tubes were all very common and highly regarded, and thus were used by builders around the globe.

Frogbutter 

I sent the seller a PM after the auction closed asking for a "Heads Up" if he re listed at a lower price. I did not bid because I, like bikemanbob am a "cheapskate". (sry Bob you claimed the title first.)
I will see what other information I get from this thread today and may ask the seller to send me an offer via eBay for $60, with the $40 shipping I will only be into the frame for $100. I would blow more than $100 in fuel to drive to Chicago next Saturday for the big swap (my wifes mini van gets 21 MPG...ugh!).

Thanks,
Cory

Edit.... I should add, I am what you would call a "Clydesdale" at 6', 255 Lbs. So frame weight is not a "BIG" factor. <----- Get the joke?

Elev12k

It is a nice frame and it looks distinctive, but I would go for the Professional immediately. I have a small collection Professionals, but I have never been able to take a look on a Criterium. Makes I won't and can't be crititical on the Criterium, but the the Professional is a gem and the one you would like to have.

Here you find a couple catalogue scans >>

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/gal...2_itemId=60995

Me being happy with the Professional team crosser I had just acquired about a year ago >>>

Frogbutter 

I sent him an offer of $60 with shipping of $40, I would be into the frame at $100. "Low Ball" I know but I am on the fence regarding the frame anyway. I really do not expect the seller to bite.

reelfishin

I must say, it's sharp looking frame but I'm not sure I'd risk an overseas transaction for that bike. You could very well be out $100 if it gets crushed or lost.
Also, I noticed that it reads MADE IN HOLLAND on the frame, and the Ishiwatta decal is also in English? Would this be the case for a bike made for use in Holland, or Poland for that matter? I've a three speed bike that came from Europe, an old Burgers ENR and nothing on that frame is in English.
That frame could be a re-badged frame made by a Japanese builder, much like Lotus and Nishiki were here in the United States. Judging by the Shimano dropouts, I'd say mid 80's or later as far as age. With all the English decals, I'd have to wonder which market it was intended for?

Frogbutter 

The bike matches quite well to the 1984 catalog https://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/gal...2_itemId=61006.
So far I have had good luck with DHL and international shipping. It all depends on the seller and how he wraps the bike frame.
No response from the seller yet, again I don't really expect one.

Elev12k

I do know of the excistence of 531 decals in French, but I have never heard of Ishiwatta decals in Dutch. I do know Union had some models made in Japan at some point. Of Batavus I know the Professional is defo Made in Holland. I am not sure on the Criterium, but I would say it is Holland.

T-Mar

The threads in the dropout hanger don't look very sound to me. I'd pass.

vintagebicycle

After a closer look at the rear dropout, I think the threads are probably fine, there's even still paint on the threads.
I think the angle just makes them look suspect.

As far as the frame's origin, I'd vote for it being Asian built, it's a matter of economics back then, bike companies were beginning to struggle with Asian competition and most just went the cheapest way out.

I'd almost prefer it to be an Asian built frame, most were well built with good quality control. When I look at that frame, I think of the frames from Tsunoda or Kawamura in the later 80's. Even the possibility of it being made by Giant came to mind. They were building for many larger brands back in the day, even Schwinn had a few in their line up.

miamijim

I would pass on it. Its an early 80's entry level frameset as suggested by the over the BB cable guides, flat style fork crown and most importantly the goofy Shimano style shift lever bosses. Save your money.

Frogbutter 

First I'm sorry if anybody thinks that I am beating a dead horse but I have some new information regarding the frame. This is from "s70rguy" Aka Freek. He is from Rotterdam and I thought he might shed some light on the Batavus frame.

"Re: Batavus Criterium Circa 1984
Hi Cory,

Batavus were all handmade in Heerenveen, Netherlands. Two remarks: there is an engraving by hand on the right side of the seattube, near the top. This is probably the postal code of a former owner (will read something like mine: 3065NB40), this was a theft deterrent and police could do this engraving for you for free. The other thing: the downtube shifter bosses are Shimano specific, there is a little notch pointing forward that Campy bosses don't have. Only Shimano gearlevers of that period will fit, or you have to saw off that notch. Batavus specced this Criterium bike with Shimano Altus gears.

I have an English language Batavus brochure similar to the one in your link, but with better pics. If you give me your email adress I'll send a scan.

regards

Freek"

THANK YOU, Everybody who had input on this thread.
I think the Crit frame will be fun to have around and I am currently the only bidder.

Cory

TugaDude

I'm tentatively agreeing with T-Mar. They look suspect at least. I don't know if they could be retreaded or not, but to these eyes, they look sketchy.

Otherwise, a nice basic frame. How about advertising WTB on your local CL and see if you get any bites? You never know, might be some collectors needing some cash right now willing to sell a Pro at a decent price.

bikemanbob

What was the outcome? Did you buy?

Frogbutter 

Auction is still active.

Good, Bad or otherwise I'm in at $60 bucks, top bid of $80 (in-case somebody wants to out bid me). With $40 shipping I will have about $100 wrapped up into the frame.

I just got this in the mail today from another forum member. (Thanks "khatfull") Shimano LA Group which should work fine with the Shimano DT shift bosses on that frame. So now I'm looking at less than $200 without wheels. The large bike swap in Minnesota is Feb 13th and I should be able to pick up wheels there.
So if I do win the auction I'm looking to have a fun spring ride on a "new-to me" bike. I know that I really don't need another bike, but what the hell.

Frogbutter 

Maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.
Thank you "Everybody" for some really great input.
I got both sides and I weighed them both.
I have won the auction and now await the frame. I will post a thread in the C&V forum when I have it built this spring.......or if it's JUNK I will never mention another word about it and sulk in the corner for a few days until the next thing catches my eye,

Kobe 

That darn d***1 put a wrench in your plan. Looks like you had to raise your $80 bid. Pretty bike, congratulations.

JunkYardBike

It's definitely not a piece of junk. Well built, quality tubing, forged dropouts and easy on the eyes! Should make a nice rider. Enjoy the build, and I, for one, look forward to photos of the finished product!

Frogbutter 

Did you see what time that auction closed? ---> Jan 26, 201123:26:16 PST After staying up that late (1:26 AM Here) There was no way I was going to loose that auction.

Thanks for the input! Really.

Frogbutter 

Almost an "April Fools" joke. The frame arrived from Poland yesterday. I have bought a lot of vintage VW parts from Germany so I knew it would take awhile. The seller did an awesome job packing. I have a few builds in front of this one but I will post pics when its done.
Cell phone pics of the un-wrap.