Shp4man

In about 1991.

look171

May I ask what did you do differently this time around then when you were in you 20s? I have a hard time getting real fitness to stay on our longer hot dog ride not that I turned 50 jsut a few days ago. I have riding 3-4 times weekly killing myself with a fair big gear pushing and spinning a 53x16. I just don't have the explosiveness when the boys hammer on the hill short hills. Recovery is another issue I am noticing. BTW, I used to hate GMR especially going to the ski lifts. Have you ever done the front side from Upland?

look171

This thread is really a lot of fun talking about the good old days.

Are you from socal BTW? I know exactly how you feel and what you went through. I have 6 years on ya. I was riding Jr in 84. Middle of college career, riding stopped completely.

calamarichris

The two main differences are:
~Getting plenty of sleep.
~Not going balls-out on every single ride.

You can also get a power meter. It was a humbling experience being shown by this machine that my pedaling form was more muscular than powerful. It takes more than just strong legs--spin form, fluidity, "supplesse" as the Euros called it, and balance between right & left legs are all huge. I started doing just one or two hard rides per week, and using the rest of my rides to work on those three things.

It used to infuriate me that these Dutch & Belgian guys on my team were such slackers, eating gross french fries, drinking beer & liquor, taking days off... and I never got any closer to their speed. I felt like a hero when I finally finished with the pack on two races, but I was dropped on all the others. And I'd placed in a few Cat 3 races back in the States! Utterly humiliating and demoralizing.

I've done GMR & Baldy from nearly every angle, and from Upland on two of the l'Etape du Californias--2011 & 2012, I think. Finished directly behind Floyd Landis on the second one. (Of course he was just out enjoying the day while I was pedaling my guts out.) It was pretty gratifying to be the fattest guy up on at the finish line both times--kinda like a bulldog in a pack of greyhounds.

davester

Me too. Also, since I ride with younger skinny guys and gals riding carbon bikes, my extra weight and finely tuned tuck makes it impossible for them to catch me on descents, try as they might. I am the king of the downhill.

noglider 

Hmm, I'm kind of skinny, not heavy. I can coast faster than everyone else, and I don't know why.

icepick_trotsky 

The rider's nerve is often the number one factor in my experience.

noglider 

I'm saying that even on a slope that isn't steep, if we start together and have a coasting race, I tend to win, and I don't do anything special. I don't know how I do it.

look171

admit it. You are a fatty

look171

My form is good and I have always been a spinner. In the past couple of years, I just have to crank a big gear just to keep up with the boys. I am pretty discipline when it comes to form. No body movements but legs. My thighs rub the top tube with elbows in when I cruising or hammering. Tell me about supplesse will ya. My cadence is normally 100-110 rpm.

You are my hero racing in Europe in those times where Americans were far and few over there especially in Belgium where the racing is hard and tough. You have to start another thread and tell us more about that. I am so much more interested in club level semi-pro then div. 1 or 2 teams. I was a cat3. I was able to only place twice the few year that I raced.

Ex Pres 

Heavier wheels

calamarichris

Actually, I spelled it incorrectly before. In French, it's souplesse--basically suppleness. The balanced, fluid application of power around all 360 degrees of the pedal stroke. If you can pedal perfectly with one leg on a trainer steadily without the whirr-whirr-whirr, that's one indication you're doing it right. I really started feeling that souplesse when I was doing single-leg pedaling drills. The weakest point of the pedal stroke for most of us is at the top, from 11 to 1 o'clock. If you build up your hip-flexors and focus on that, it helps.
In addition to that, I was doing yoga and making a conscious effort to inhale and exhale deeply, rather than just let the body do what it wants. It's kinda dull to focus on fluidity and breathing for hours and hours, but that's what gets the souplesse and the results.



Whenever I look at this picture from the 2010 Tour de Poway, I remember the sensation of really having it. My heart rate was at 184 at that moment at the top of Poway grade, and I was concentrating very hard on maintaining constant, fluid, and positive pressure on the pedals. My legs weren't tired or tight at all, and I was flying past dozens and dozens of riders up the grade. Ended up finishing the 101.5 miles in 4:57, averaging 21.1 mph over the century.
Really looking forward to getting that back.

I remember the sensations of that day and my other sub-5 centuries with more pride and joy than I do my dark times racing in Europe. That was only discouraging and humiliating. At one race in Belgium, it was the year Lemond had won the Tour ('89 I think?), and they insisted I start the kermess at the front. Everyone was worried about this hot new American, and they wouldn't let me start at the back. I dropped off the back of that pack before we'd even finished 5 laps, and my Marka teammates were disgusted with me.

The Marka team boss kept repeating, you must train! And I'd always answer "dat weet ik! dat weet ik!" (I know! I know!), but I didn't know how to train. I was riding over 1000 km per week during the season, and averaging 4 hours of sleep per night.
Before one can be old & wise, one must go through a period of youth & folly.

look171

More, more on the Kermess and their training methods. Those tough Belgium youth go balls to the wall form the gun don't they? (I love their training, ideas and methods) I don't know how to rest. Rest almost always means sitting on the sofa but we all know you still have to go out and spin. BTW, spinning up a grade is no east feat. It takes lots of discipline. Its all lungs. There is no way I can finish a century in 5 hours including hills. That's what kills me.

How often do you do one leg training exercise when you were racing and how often did your coach made you guys do intervals? What were they like? I still believe in racing or training rides into shape. It has all of the above, spin, big gears, chasing breaks and stupid hills where i get my face pounded in. I remember reading about one of the Planckaert brothers, he claims that they wouldn't shift into a smaller gear during a certain exercise or a climbs. The Russian coach made them ride their bikes for a couple of hours at a layover going to Argentina. Piling on the miles makes you super strong.

calamarichris

I didn't want to hear this back then either, but rest and slow riding a conscious effort on souplesse are perhaps even more important than piling on miles. Your body does "figure out" some things if you beat your head against the wall, but why not use your intellect and your focus to learn them more quickly and thoroughly?
If we had a coach on my Dutch team, I never warranted his attention back then, because I never got to meet him. I did a few group rides with the team, and always kept up with them no problem, but that's probably because they were taking it easy. They were down by Maastricht, which was a 50km ride away from where I lived.
It was a mystery to me back then, because I wasn't open to the solution. I would nod and hear what they were saying without listening. "Train more... okay, got it."
Rest and focus are more important than piling on huge miles. At 1000km per week, I was piling on the miles, but I never rested and wasn't sleeping nearly enough, therefore I never fully recovered from the hard efforts and never improved.
Since 2010, I've learned to appreciate the importance of resting and recovering. Don't spend your recovery time on the couch; spend it getting flexibility and focus. Yoga was absolutely helpful here. I had a hard time focusing on the stretch, on balance, and on breathing in a roomful of sweaty, hot, fit, scantily-clad young women, so I got a DVD from my local library. Easier to focus on what's important when you aren't distracted by having to fart, or worrying about someone taking offense at the tentpole in your gym shorts.

caloso

Probably 2010. I was finally able to do Mt. Diablo in under an hour. I didn't have a powermeter then, but the math works out to approximately 4w/kg.

look171

Hahahahahah. Gym shorts??? I always it was mandatory to wear yoga pants, but we tough guys are used to wearing those thing way back in the mid 80s way before they became fashionable.

I was doing 400 mile weeks in my early 20s. About 200 of those were just riding/ spinning. The rest were hauling ass at race pace in training rides. I felt I was pretty fast and have always been able to hang with the big dogs, I finish the rides and finish the races. How much power work did those guys over there during the week? Did they spin easy for 80k the next day just to loosen up and do it again the next day? I discovered yoga is not for fat people like me. I have to lose 25 lbs to reach my old racing weight.

Was this in the late 80s that you raced in Europe? Did you decided to go over find a club and race and see about making it? That was what my buddy and I dreamed about doing after reading about LeMond and "Jacques" Boyer the other forgotten American pioneer.

Homebrew01

Here ya go, as told by a friend of mine very active in the area.
https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...kermesses.html

PS, I never found much use for the 1-leg drills.

obrentharris 

Great story!
Brent

look171

Wow, thanks for the link. Very interesting. I will have to spend some time reading all those. I always remember reading about our boys going to the Olympic, riding in the European races getting drop or not finishing. This was in the early to mid 80s. By the 90s, we hear a couple guys who go race there dragging their asses back after a couple of months. Thurlow rogers would mumble something at times about his early days in Europe (before Levis and 7-11 days) when we were waiting around for our ride to start. That was it. The amateur riders in Europe is always a lot more interesting to me.

The 1 legged drill I only did a couple of times. It was no fun and decided to just ride instead.

calamarichris

They're awkward as all-get-out and difficult, but ever notice how balanced and fluid you feel when you click your other leg back in? I always did them on the rollers with resistance, and would then try to hold that fluid feeling for as long as possible afterward. YMMV, but those, and working the hip-flexor machine in the gym transformed my spin and my engine. Just had a great, spirited 72 mile ride today and wish I didn't have to go to work tomorrow.

That was indeed a great read. He was starting out about a year after I'd given up. '91/early'92. The International class was murder. All the European olympic teams were there at the start line. I might've stood a chance of finishing more races with them if I knew then what I learned nearly 20 years later. I had no coaching, and the most information I had about training was pretty much Eddie B's book. I made a trip to Germany for a "Friendship Ride" MTB race between the Germans & Americans. I finished first or second among the Americans, but many of the Germans had changed out of their shorts and jerseys by the time we came in. It was tragic.

If you're really interested in that time, check out "Dog in a Hat". I had no idea the amphetamine use was so widespread then, but I'm not at all surprised. I would even make a strong showing on the few team training rides I did, but on races--dropped like a diarrhea-pie.

I miss riding on those roads around Maastricht & Liege, and the roads and scenes of the ancient trees lining both sides even still occur in my dreams once in a while, but nothing of the racing. It was only dark and miserable; makes me appreciate Greg Lemond's story all the more.

I went back to Maastricht for two weeks in 2008, hoping to ride around on those roads, but got sick on the flight over and it turned into a pubcrawl. I'd have a few great Dutch or Belgian beers, ride the bus on those beautiful roads around Valkenburg & Liege, and stop off in the towns between the roads for more great beer. Happily my current GF is really pumped to go visit there again, and we're going to take plenty of Airborne before the flight.
I can't wait to get back.

look171

Tell me about that Boogerd pump.

I never saw any pumps like that when I was in Holland, but we were with in 30 miles of Amsterdam.

calamarichris

Amsterdam is fulla crime, junkies with Scottish accents, & wh0r3s. There's a full-time team of dredgers that have to sweep the canals for stolen, discarded bikes. The pump was in Valkenberg, down in an area of Limburg the Dutch call "little Switzerland". It's a really cool area, there are ancient ruins everywhere, and a US military cemetary not too far called Margraten. Lots of GI's bought the farm in the woods around there.
It's cycling nirvana, and they loove their riding there. The Amstel Gold Race always passes through Valkenburg, and the TdF has passed through twice that I can recall. That pump in the pic was a combination bike rack and tire pump unveiled by Michael Boogard. It was heavy-duty & top quality--made me wish I was on a bike instead of just walking around with pneumonia.
I was on the train from Liege to Luxembourg later that day, ....and saw a pro-peloton and full caravan whiz by! I'm not sure which one it was, but it was on 4/22/08, and it turns out Liege-Bastogne-Liege was 4/27/08.
I was smacking myself in the forehead over not knowing about that one. It was kinda awkward, because I was practicing my French with a friendly Native American or Eskimo-looking guy on the train when the race whizzed by. We swapped email addresses, and he later said in an email that he was looking forward to hooking up sexually. Erm, merci monseur, mais non... I was just happy my French was coming back to me.

Ran into this crazy Welchman in Luxembourg who said, "You're in the wrong town if you're lookin for Indian food, mate, you need to get to London!" So I took the TGV there the next morning and he was right--London has the best Indian food I'd ever had--I'd skip breakfast so I could have an early lunch at one Indian place, then have another lunch at another place, and then two dinners at two different Indian food places. Gained nearly 10 pounds in as many days. I'd saved for nearly a year for that trip and would've given anything to've ridden my bike on those roads in my dreams, but it still turned out to be a fun trip.


Nelson's lions' heads are usually covered with pigeo-poo, but it had rained hard recently so they were clean. A crowd gathered when I was on top of the lion's head, and a cop even came over and started looking worried, but I got back down just fine and took a bow.

look171

Maybe it was your shaved legs that got him / her excited. I didn't get a chance to see any place in Belgium or any famous cycling related places in Holland like Valkenberg. But I did visit Masi under the Vigorelli velodrome. I wanted a custom bike from him. Then girlfriend, now wife wanted to stick around Milan and Paris while I wanted to walk up Koppenburg. I am a huge fan of those farm boys up in Flanders.

I think any British colony has great Indian food. My best Indian food experience was in a restaurant up on Victoria Peak in Hong Kong. There are many Indian restaurants popping all over the place up here in LA. You should have some great ones in SD. I saw this program on TV that a certain Indian food has become main stream British dish. I can totally understand why. I can't eat British food daily, can ya? That dish is the taco of Indian food in the UK.

I did 2 hours of "Suppleness" yesterday and today. I stayed in a 39x15 and spun like a mad man never getting below 130rpm. My legs didn't hurt as much after that. I am just looking for some fitness because I am getting drop on our training ride. I haven't been dropped like that in a very long time. Riding once a week doesn't help.

So, did you just decided to pack up and go racing over there? Belgium, Holland is the place to be.

ddeand 

Mid-summer, 1964. And I was only fast for a few minutes. Clocked at 72mph by a car on a loooong downhill in Western Montana while riding a Schwinn Collegiate. Helmets hadn't been invented. Scared the snot out of me. Ever slower since then.

old's'cool

That's pretty effing crazy! I assume you were not pedaling, and gravity was doing all the work. At less than half that speed I'm already sh*tting myself .