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Please help me identify this mystery frame

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Please help me identify this mystery frame

Old 11-13-15, 03:49 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
I thought that Reynolds sets had domed stay ends/fork blade ends, not "fishmouths", where did I get that idea? Howcome we see plenty of French bikes with the "fishmouth" or "scalloped" stay ends but not many British frames that feature those? Am I hallucinating again?
Reynolds offered 531 fork blades and rear stays with either domed and slotted ends or square ends.



Peugeot used domed forks and stays on "most" their of their Reynolds frames.

1962 PX-10



Early 70s PX-10



1998 Peugeot Chorus Reynolds 753 and 1989 Peugeot Chorus Reynolds 753



Gitane, Bertin, Lejeune and a lot of other French makers used fish mouth ends on most of there Reynolds frames up through the early 80's. Motobecane and others used both types of ends on some of their frames so there's no cut and dried standards.



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Old 11-13-15, 04:40 AM
  #27  
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Reading this thread.
Dayum, you guys are amazing!

Carry on, Holmes .
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Old 11-13-15, 08:08 AM
  #28  
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Spanish with french threads, 26.2 seat post, zeus dropouts

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Old 11-13-15, 08:37 AM
  #29  
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Thanks All for this new info. I have some new information as well, thanks to a generous soul who spent two hours with me, the frameset, and a whole bunch of old bike components and bb`s in his shop.

The bb is definitively French and not Swiss.
The OD on the steer tube is 25.0 if that can somehow identify the tubing.

Now for the part that`s kinda sad: the stack height for the missing headset is 30.8 (huh?) Even with the top of the head tube looking filed down that`s incredibly short.
I mean what on earth was in this thing!? We tried to assemble something that would work from an old bin of french parts, mixing and matching and coudn`t come up with anything remotely that short.
Even a Stronglight P-3 would be too tall a stack.
I saw online that Gitane made a headset with a 30.0 stack for it`s low end models.

The frame is painted with enamel and when I scraped down a spot there was no color beneath. However when I look into the head tube it looks like some green spray is in there. The fact that there`s no pin striping or lug lining suggests it`s been repainted to me.
The sticker on the lower part of the seat tube is made of transparent plastic which is why it looks yellow in the photo. I can clearly read the words "Bike Shop" and the american style phone number is partially worn off as well as the bike shop name which starts with the word "The". The lettering is black.

My original plan was to set up an older eBay frame for light touring. Something old and relaxed, something with a nice rake in front that also had an aesthetic I could get attached to. Maybe try a 650b conversion and really create something I`d be happy to ride not just on short jaunts but all day long. Something to ramble on in the countryside for many hours at a time. But I really wanted something interesting that felt as handmade as I could get for not a lot of money.

So I`m kind of feeling like I really picked a doozy. And the bike shop in Pasadena sold it to me as "an old English touring frame"!! I even asked them to double check the threading.
It looks like I`ll need to get a new fork to solve the headset problem.

Even though this is proving to be a little more challenging than I expected, I`m getting pretty attached to this frame and it IS just my size., so no regrets : )

Juvela, that`s amazing you found the same frame in your racks!! So you think it`s a Urago? That U in the serial really seems to suggest so.
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Old 11-13-15, 10:11 AM
  #30  
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you aren't sunk as far as headsets, but choices with <31mm stack height are few: the Dura-Ace HP7600 is one (but modern) and the Tange MA-60 is a better "classic" looking choice but just a hair over 31mm. I bet you can get it working with thinner or no washer, plus you may need to use a FR threaded top nut.
Your slightly pricier fall-back: have a skilled repair-ist splice on a new steerer on the old fork/steerer and then cut it for the HS (plus spacers) of your choice, you can even go with ISO/Brit threading if you do this. I'd reco Bernie Mikkelsen in Alameda for this repair, but a long drive if you're in Pasadena/SoCal.
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Old 11-13-15, 10:21 AM
  #31  
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You can also have someone mill the headtube so that the steerer tube of the fork is then relatively taller and as a result provides a greater stack height. Mill the top if you can. Milling the bottom will lower the frame relative to the fork and alter the geometry, even if only slightly.
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Old 11-13-15, 10:27 AM
  #32  
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I`m in NYC, but I will ask my very skilled local frame builder about splicing and any other options. Is that Dura-Ace HP7600 is French threaded?
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Old 11-13-15, 02:40 PM
  #33  
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note on lugs -

not modified post manufacture.

the ones on my example are the same and frame is in original finish.
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Old 11-13-15, 02:58 PM
  #34  
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Interesting Juvela. Do your Uragos have very short headset stacks?? And what is the make of your headsets?
The more pics of Uragos I look at the more I think my frame is one. And the serial number style matches: 4 digits and underneath a U and two more digits. The fact that yours has the same "Bertin style" seat stay caps and presumably from 1960....
Does your confirmed Urago 1957 have the same type of serial number??
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Old 11-13-15, 06:21 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by plodclunker
Interesting Juvela. Do your Uragos have very short headset stacks?? And what is the make of your headsets?
The more pics of Uragos I look at the more I think my frame is one. And the serial number style matches: 4 digits and underneath a U and two more digits. The fact that yours has the same "Bertin style" seat stay caps and presumably from 1960....
Does your confirmed Urago 1957 have the same type of serial number??
cannot comment on hs for my frame like yours. as mentioned in earlier post it was taken in without fork and without fittings.

1957 urago have not touched. all plated fittings heavily rusted. encrusted would be a good term. starting with the liquid wrench is something am not ready to get into at this time. have not explored it for serial #.

Last edited by juvela; 11-13-15 at 06:52 PM. Reason: punctuation
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Old 11-14-15, 10:00 AM
  #36  
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Strange that Urago (or Bertin more correctly) would have milled the headlugs so much in the original build, but stranger thing have happened! I sure would NOT do any more milling of them, assuming the surfaces are true and flat, there's no "fat or meat" left, this is down to "bone"...
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Old 11-14-15, 03:29 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by verktyg
Riveted Bertin head badge. I have one of these somewhere. I'll have to measure it.



Bertins from the mid 60's and later used adhesive head badges. Some were thick foil others ones were thinner.



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Chas . The riveted one on my desk staring at me measures 47.8 mm
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Old 11-18-15, 01:07 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by plodclunker
Interesting Juvela. Do your Uragos have very short headset stacks?? And what is the make of your headsets?
The more pics of Uragos I look at the more I think my frame is one. And the serial number style matches: 4 digits and underneath a U and two more digits. The fact that yours has the same "Bertin style" seat stay caps and presumably from 1960....
Does your confirmed Urago 1957 have the same type of serial number??
checked pillar size on the example here and found it to be 26.2.

with respect to questions regarding fork, steerer length and headset -

fork original to machine.

head not altered post manufacture.

fork not altered, steerer not shortened.

checked my 1957 urago. it is fitted with what looks at first glance like a typical ordinary quality french headset, similar to lightrace. locknut is 32mm octagonal. has the typical french toothed lock washer in an off-black oxide finish. upon closer examination fittings appear quite slender/diminutive. upper stack measures 16mm and lower 14mm for a total stack height of 30mm. bicycle built with beborex roller-cam sidepull brakes so no need for brake hanger space. possible small stack height achieved with aid of 1/8" balls. for example, the campag-bianchi integral headset used 1/8" and iirc there were some british sets with floating u-races which also used 1/8". no markings of any kind on hs, alas.

if you have access to a sutherland manual you can check the stack height column in the headset section to see what sets have been made with this dimension.

with respect to serial number -

checked the 1957 bicycle and it only has a number stamped into the shell by a licensing agency. no serial on shell, dropouts, seat tube, etc. evidently built without one. dropouts are nervex stamped sheet without hanger.

interestingly, member VintageRide's 1952 urago has a serial number similar to your frame -

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...de-france.html

scroll down to message nr. nine to see photo.

you also might like to see this frameset dated 1966:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-my-urago.html

scroll down to message nr. nine for detail photos.

Last edited by juvela; 11-18-15 at 04:07 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 11-19-15, 10:59 AM
  #39  
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Juvela,
Great info, thanks! I guess these manufacturers were`t so interested in consistency with their serial numbers. I don`t want to make an assumption that mine is a Urago if I`ll never really know for sure.
So for now, it`s "a French bike from the 50`s".
When I do the repaint I`ll put a French crest decal on the seat tube and head tube in honor of that.
I`m having a new fork made for this frame and will keep the old one. The fork will be wired internally for a Son SL hub and will have an increased rake.
I`m going to build it up with a combo of new and vintage components where each applies, the new ones in keeping with the 50`s style of the frame.

I will post photos as it moves along for anybody whose interested.
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Old 11-19-15, 11:21 AM
  #40  
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thanks for the update plodclunker,

had an opportunity to check howard sutherland for stack height specifications. he does show one french example at 31.2mm. it is listed as "beacon: french replacement" which does not help to identify manufacturer. beacon was a wholesale distributor which operated from oakland california during the bike boom years so it is just a house brand.

sounds like you are moving forward.
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Old 11-23-15, 01:45 PM
  #41  
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note regarding serial number placement and format:

Verktyg posted this image yesterday as part of a discussion anent dropouts and dropout adjusters. it is of a Bertin frame; note similarity of placement and format to the serials on our mystery frames -



dropout is Milremo brand.
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Bertin Milremo Dropout .jpg (99.4 KB, 125 views)
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