Undoubtedly, a lot of cyclists simply pushed their feet into clips as far as they would go, particularly recreational cyclists, but this was not the practice when I started cycling. The basic fitting method was to position the ball of the foot directly over the pedal axle, which is the optimum position for both power and stability. Only after you established the foot position, did you select the toe clip length and it was always slightly longer than necessary, even if you had to shim a short toe clip. You then rode, without cleats, allowing the foot to find it's natural position, until the rear pedal plate had made an impression on the sole. This would fine tune the fore/aft position but was primarily to determine the natural angle of the foot to prevent knee strain. The impression was aligned with the slot during cleat installation. After the cleats were installed, you adjusted the toe clips to provide a for proper toe box clearance, which was about one millimetre.

Once you become familiar with the proper position, it becomes 2nd nature. Even if you're wearing running shoes and test riding someone else's bicycle, your foot will seek out the sweet spot. If the clips are too long, it doesn't matter. If they're too short, you'll be trying to jam your foot in further.

There's no reason to be riding with your toes contacting the clips, especially with cleated shoes. It serves no purpose. Any contact with the clip can lead to discomfort and you are most efficient when you are not in discomfort.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. This is the practice that was used when I started cycling competitively in the early 1970s. It's also what I used for fitting cyclists as a certified cycling coach and many of them have been quite successful.

[MENTION=20650]T-Mar[/MENTION], ball of foot over pedal spindle is optimal for power and stability, but it can cause injuries. My feet are injured, and now I pedal with my cleats all the way back. It might look amateurish, but at this point, I consider pedal over spindle to be analogous to pedaling high gears. It's more efficient in the beginning, until you're damaged.

And I used toe clips for a long time without cleats. I pushed really hard against the toe clips and got horrendous ingrown toenails.

[MENTION=152773]noglider[/MENTION] - how do you know it wasn't the shoe that caused the problem instead of having the ball of your foot over the axle?

The reason I ask is that my right foot experienced what I believe is a stress fracture after riding in new SIDI shoes. i realized afterward that I had tightened them up too much. the foot is better but still has some discomfort after getting off the bike.

My last pair of shoes, Specialized, were purchased last week and they are incredibly comfortable. The second set of SIDI mega are also ver comfortable, that I picked up last summer.

[MENTION=124730]SJX426[/MENTION], I really don't know. I suspect I was abusing my feet in many various ways, and the abuses added up. I recently read an article that argued that mechanically, ball over spindle is ideal, whereas biologically, it's not. We are not machines, so we have extra considerations to take.

My new approach is working for me, but I find it hard to position my foot in the new way when I don't have cleats. I go back to my old habit. Maybe I'll learn in time.

I have one bike with toe clips, and I have to make extensions for the attachment points. I feel like I'm pedaling with my toes.

Thanks for the explanation, T-Mar. I've just found some photos of racers from the 1950s-70s that clearly show the foot clearly not being in contact with the clip, so I have no reason to doubt what you are saying! It makes sense from a technical perspective.

However, I do not agree about the issue of discomfort, assuming that a rider does not actually apply regular forward pressure on the clips. I personally do not ride with cleats, so having the front of my shoe contacting the clip is how I know I'm in a good spot over the pedal. I simply let my foot rest in a position where it can no longer slide forward, and I'm aware that sometimes it begins to slip back again and I then easily correct myself but pushing forward momentarily until I touch the clip. After being out for upward of 50-75 miles I've never feel any level of discomfort in my toes or feet.

I had presumed that clips, especially of these early sorts without the aid of straps, would have been used similarly.

Its a personal issue I would think, but in my case T-mar is correct in saying not to have contact with the clips, at or on the toe box of your shoes. Unless you wear intentionally longer shoes with space at the toes, the clips could put undue pressure on the toes. I had to swap out a pair of Christophe clips as they were lower profile, and they made contact across the great toe and second toe, on my left foot. After some miles into a ride it would feel like there was a clamp on my front of the left foot. A pair of MKS that had a taller profile, and strangely enough were slightly shorter length (maybe 1-2 mm,) no more problems.

Maybe your foot's anatomy allows you to place the toes against the clips, it sure sounds that way. And having a point of reference to place your feet is a handy thing me.

Bill

Riding in a proper fitted cycling shoe is far different than riding in a running shoes. First off, since your not using cleats, you can constantly adjust the fore/aft position to determine the amount of pressure put on the clip. Secondly, most running shoes have a sole that wraps partially up the toes box to provide some cushioning. Finally, and most importantly, running shoes are typically fitted so that there is some clearance between the toes and the tip of the toe box. Consequently, even if the shoe contacts the toe clip, there will be no pressure against the toe, unless you use a fair bit of force.

Proper cycling shoes used in competition are very different shoe. You can't adjust the fore/aft position as you're riding, the toe box extends beyond the sole and they are intended for a very snug fit. Also, races often exceed the distance you mention, and swelling is not uncommon, which can increase the pressure if you've set the cleats to allow the shoe to contact the clip.

Effectively, the looser fit of something like a running shoe provides the foot with toe to clip clearance that must be set in a cycling shoe by properly positioning the cleat. I'm attaching an excerpt from a 1980s coaching manual that clearly mentions and shows the clearance between shoe and clip, suggesting even greater clearance than what I used.

[MENTION=20650]T-Mar[/MENTION] Thanks again for your thoughtful explanations! I've adjusted my thoughts on the matter accordingly, and would very much like to get a hold of some proper cleated shoes now. I usually either ride with regular shoes in straps/clips, or modern cycling shoes with clipless pedals. Sounds like it's time for another adventure!