So I have a Swiss CILO bike from the mid-late 70s that is currently sporting a Campagnolo Nuovo Record RD. The bike came to me with a Shimano Arabesque 600 RD, and the NR swapped right on no problem, so I assume the built in hanger is bog standard, whatever that is.
Question, will a Simplex SX100 type RD like this swap on with no issues, or will there be issues?



...minus the separate hanger, of course!

Shouldn't be a problem.

Only issue I could foresee is the head of the bolt that goes through the hanger to the derailleur could protrude enough to interfere with the freewheel, if the fit is tight

Is it a white Pacer? A friend of mine in High School had one of those.

Pictures?

Confirmed - fits and works fine, only with a slight protrusion from the bolt head.

Just remember, the upper pivot spring tab stop goes on the front of the hanger

I'm pretty sure it would work fine but I'm a little puzzled by this as a choice for a a replacement for a Record. These were a slightly upgraded version of the Prestige basically bottom end for the same price one would cost I think you could find a lot better Suntour or Shimano long cage.

Perhaps it was original equipment?

First off NO... Because the claw mount Simplex derailleurs like the one pictured above were not made to be used on a direct mount dropout hanger or even be easily converted.

While some 1960's early 70's Simplex Prestige and Criterium derailleurs came setup to be used either direct mount or with a claw hanger, after the mid 70's Lucien Juy the founder of Simplex, in his infinite wisdom, couldn't see fit to make one SIMPLE derailleur that could be used either way!

The claw mount derailleurs used a different top pivot bolt than the direct mount models.



A claw mount could be converted to direct mount if you could find the correct upper pivot bolt, travel stop plate and mounting screw. There were a lot of variations in the pivot bolts and travel stop plates so finding the correct ones for a 35-40 year old derailleur is like looking for hen's teeth!



Additionally, those Simplex derailleurs with the Delrin plastic knuckles on the parallelogram are always suspect because they're way past their "sell by date". Delrin breaks down when exposed to certain chemicals found in lubricants and also UV light from the sun.


Next question? What would you like to achieve by switching derailleurs? What's the tooth range on your freewheel and how many teeth on your chainrings?

Shimano 600EX Arabesque derailleurs were rated at 28T max sprocket with 26T chain wrap. You can probably go larger with some experimenting.

I was on one C&V ride where 3 THREE people were running 34T freewheels with Campy NR derailleurs!!! NRs can handle up to 30T FWs on many bikes without any problem!

If you are looking for a long arm large capacity RD, I'd suggest finding one with a dropped parallelogram, they shift much better. All of the major derailleur manufacturers made them, even Campy! (Suntour, Shimano, Simplex, Campy, etc.)

Read my posts in this thread - the definitive guide to Simplex SLJ derailleurs...

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...-capacity.html

verktyg

Chas.

NOPE, not with the claw hanger Simplex SX100 RD in question. The 1960's early 70's Simplex Criterium derailleurs like the one you pictured came with a detachable claw hanger and would fit Simplex and Campy style dropouts.

See my post # 6 for more details.

NOTE: the hex openings in the Simplex upper and lower pivot bolts have plastic plugs and are NOT for mounting or removing those derailleurs! They're for adjusting the pivot spring tension.

As you pictured the mounting bolt is on the inside of the dropout. Trying to remove the RD from the outside can easily trash it!

verktyg

Chas.

Thanks for all the helpful responses.
I've always instinctively run away screaming from anything Simplex, and my instincts seem to be confirmed by verktyg.
To be sure, the actual derailleur I am considering is all metal construction; I have no interest in Delrin as a structural material.

In answer to some of the questions, I don't know the year and model of my CILO; that information was not provided when I purchased it,and it had been repainted and evidently had several of its components upgraded over the years prior to my acquisition. Anyway, here is a current photo.



What is behind my question is, my CILO is starting to grow on my as a regular commuter bike, and I'm thinking of upgrading the crankset from a traditional 42-52 double to a triple; and I'm doubting that the NR RD has the required wrap for say, 36-22 to 52-19, i.e. 13T of wrap, not accounting for shifting errors, which would extend the wrap requirement to over 30T, in the worst case.
Further background is, apart from consumables, I've kept this build almost 100% European; only exceptions so far being low profile components like the seatpost and the freewheel.
So there you have it. I have a Crane GS waiting in the wings to handle the chain wrap in the mean time until I figure out a cost-effective European derailleur for the job (grail RD being a Campy Rally; but I don't expect to find one for a price I can justify).

...maybe I'm alone in my opinion, but I've always considered the Campy Rally rear derailleurs to be kinda crappy. If I were using this as a commuter, the Crane would be far and away my first choice. Are the Campy Rally ones really worth some money ? I am so ignorant about prices it hurts.

I was pointing out to all the problems with Simplex SX100 RDs.

The plain old cheap bottom of the line Simplex Prestige RDs from the bike boom era actually shifted far better than Campy NR RDs when they were new, well lubricated and with good cables. The reason being, Simplex used sprung upper pivots.

Refer to Frank Berto's book "The Dancing Chain".


Simplex Super LJ all metal derailleurs came out ~1973. They were as good or better than any RDs on the market at the time. They had a published FW capacity of 14-34T...



In the mid 70's Simplex started offering RDs with a dropped parallelogram like Suntour and Shimano. They worked just as well.




The problem with the Simplex all metal Super LJ derailleurs back in the 1970's was that they were more expensive than equivalent Campy components. Plus they carried the bad rap of the Delrin Simplex derailleurs.

Simplex introduced some less expensive models than the SLJ series that worked just as well. They were the SX410 with a standard parallelogram and the SX610 and SX630 with dropped parallelograms. they can hand;e at least a 30T FW sprocket.



Several other choices, the SX610 GTSP and SX630 GTSP long arm RDs. Here a SX630 on my Motobecane Grand Jubile with 48-38-28T triple chainrings and a 13-30T 7 speed FW. It's the same design as the Shimano Crane GS RDs.




You can't go wrong with a Crane GS. I've used them since 1975 and they're bullet proof! They were the design model for a lot of later derailleurs including Campy, Simplex, Sachs Huret and eventually Suntour. The first generation Campy Rally design was a knock off of the Crane GS. Apparently Shimano slapped Campy's wrist and they withdrew that style after a few years.

The problem with the first generation Rally RDs was the upper pivot arms were made of cast "pot metal", a cheap zinc alloy. The first version frequently broke at the neck because of a very poor design! They tried to fix it with a second version then the discontinued the drop arm Rally. I wont go into the kluged together 2nd generation Rallys.



[MENTION=209177]3alarmer[/MENTION] +1

Aside from the aesthetic or vanity factor, there's not much if any advantage to going to a Campy Rally RD.


verktyg

Chas.

Soma makes a retrofit long cage for the Campy NR

Soma Nuova Retro Derailleur Cage Plates

Saw lots of them at Eroica -


Chas makes a good point about the simplex upper pivot bolt on the hanger model not being interchangable to use as a direct mount, however, seems to me that the cages ARE generally interchangable, so if you get a long cage, you can put it on another body (for that matter, the upper pivot bolts generally are interchangable as well - LJs are different, as the spring keys into the body instead of the bolt, and I can't speak to much beyond early 80s), but generally speaking, if you end up with a simplex GT, hanger model, and pickup a direct mount model, you can swap things around and make them work. On the other hand just getting a new cage for the existing NR seems much easier than going down the French/Simplex rabbit hole.

......just sayin'

Joe

If you want to stay European for a long cage rear derailleur you could also consider a Huret New Success or Dou Par. There are a few nice ones at fairly reasonable prices on ebay.
Vintage Sachs Huret New Success Road Bike Rear Derailleur Excellent Condition | eBay
Sachs Huret Duopar Rear Derailleur | eBay

Re the title of this thread, there's really no such thing.

...I think that New Success is a pretty good design. The Duopar works well until it wears a little, which is pretty quickly, and then IME becomes just one more vexatious POS.

Why not put a long cage on the NR? I have two bikes like that, one cage made by BF member Henry III, the other from Soma Fabrications (Bilenky is a dealer). Both work well.

Lots of great information and ideas!
Thanks so much. Lots to digest before I respond in detail or decide my next move.

The Sachs Huret New Success derailleurs were dead nuts knock offs of the venerable Shimano Crane and Crane GS derailleurs. Almost every European derailleur manufacturer copied the design even Campy with the 1st generation Rally RDs and late 80's pre-index designs.

Lately I've been riding my 83 Colnago Super with a mid 70's Shimano Crane derailleur. Still shifts crisp - 1 step forward or backward - unlike Campy S/GS/NR/SR/NGS/Triomphe/Victory/C-Record and other models with 2 forward, 1 back shifting.



The Huret Duopars with the titanium pivot knuckles and titanium cages were light weight and shifted well when new. They can be shifted from the smallest sprocket to the largest in one step with minimum gear grinding!

One of the problems with Doupars is titanium alloys can be heat treated to much higher strengths than most steel alloys but they're more flexible that steel.

With a few exceptions, I've preferred long arm derailleurs with steel cages for the increased rigidity over aluminum or in the case of Duopars titanium cages. e.g. Suntour VG-T with a steel cage, Shimano Deore LX and so on.

We imported French bikes and components during the 1970's. When the Duopar first came out, we ordered some of them along with a few Duopar Acier derailleurs - not knowing what they were.

These had satin chrome plated steel pivot knuckles and pulley cages. We found them to be superior to the titanium Duopars on tandems and for off road use. From what I've seen they were undocumented - not in any catalogs or literature!

I have one on the touring bike I built for myself back in 1975. It still works great. These were NOT the Huret ECO model which came out later in the 1970's.



In 1975 our wholesale cost for Duopars from France was ~$90 USD. The Duopar Acier RDs cost about half that much.

verktyg

Chas.

I auditioned several RD's on my Peugeot and this Sachs was the winner. It's an inexpensive model with some steel parts, including the cage. A Suntour VGT Luxe was a close second, but shifting wasn't quite as crisp. The Sachs looks an awful lot like a Shimano copy. It's too modern for the bike. I hated the NR with Rally cage. I ended up using a late 1st generation Rally. It may be kind of crappy, but I always thought they looked cool. The bike is pretty much a wall hanger anyway. I will use the Sachs if I ever build a bike for long distance touring.

Say what?

Bingo! We have a winner. "Simple" and "Simplex" an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Not knowing all the ins and outs of Simplex derailleurs, I linked a photo from Velobase indicating the basic features of derailleurs I was looking at on Ebay, which turned out to be SX410, or similar. All metal, at least.
Main point of my question was answered in the negative, i.e. would it be a bolt-on for the Campy NR. Thanks!

Thanks for the tip! I might consider that if the NR doesn't work out (see below).

Thanks. Both look like good options functionally and for keeping the European vibe. Esthetically though, they seem a little modern compared to the remainder of my build...
I've been travelling and visiting family the past few days, so sorry for my delayed feedback, but I really appreciate the input and discussion.

Now I've had some time to do some research and calculation, it appears that the NR can do the job as is. My gearing combo will be 13-26 and 36-48-52, most likely. The NR is supposed to handle 25T of wrap. I will set the chain to fit the 26-52 combo with the RD fully extended, though I will never intentionally cross-chain anywhere near there. On the low end, the smallest combination I will intentionally run is 36-18, so my wrap requirement is (52+26) - (36+18) = 24. So, theoretically, the NR can do the job.
If there are any issues with wrap under the above assumptions, the long Rally style cage plates are a very tempting option.

Thanks again to Chas and all for the education on Simplex and other Euro derailleurs in the period that their losing battle for market share was underway.

I'm getting ready to do a build and I'm going to use a shimano crane long cage rather than a campy rally rear because I think it's a better derailleur as well. Both go for kind of crazy money on eBay from what's I've seen but the rally, like all things campy, commands a premium.

And after 8 years, what decision did you make? I'm undecided whether to try to preserve my touring bike with parts from its era or to go for a Neo Retro build, because in the end, the price is the same since vintage long cage derailleurs are very expensive and there is always little information about their capacity to handle a triple chainring. I considered the following long cage versions:- Simplex SX410 GT (The original that my bike had)- Simplex SX610 GT- Simplex SLJ 5500 GT- Simplex SLJ 6600 GT- Simplex SX440- Simplex Fun Bike- Huret New Success - Huret Jubilee- Huret Duopar- Sachs Huret Rider- Sachs Huret Eco- Sachs Huret New Success 84- Sachs Huret Rival 84- Sachs Huret Aris Rival ATB- Sachs M7000- Sachs Neos- Sachs Quartz- Suntour RD GT / FD Spirit- Suntour Cyclone- Suntour Mount Tech- Suntour V GT Luxe- Shimano Deore DE20- Shimano Deore M700- Shimano Z505 GS... And the conclusion is always the same: a Shimano GRX RX400 with Dia Compe ENE 11s friction shifters (despite being 10-speed, they have the 11-speed pull ratio) ends up being the same price or even cheaper in some cases.

The question will always have to he asked whether it's a good 8dea to use these old Simplex RDs with Delrin on its major parts, like the main pivots. Sure, it looks pretty good, condition-w8se at first glance, but who knows how much 9f the plastcizers in that Delrin had already off-gassed from it, since it left the factory 49 to 50 years ago.... why not just get an all metal Simplex RD with similar gear capacity, so you will be safe, for sure. Tue later all metal ones like the Simplex 4000 and 5000 series with the longer cages, did shift much better, because they do not have the flex that the Delrin festooned ones did. So the shifting is more precise and quicker.