We're the sleeve - less bars always considered lower quality for handlebars?
It seems to be the case with French bars, except for the Atax "Professional" model bar, which was just a bigger diameter bar, all the way through, without the bulged out mid section......

[MENTION=61614]verktyg[/MENTION] that is excellent, thank you! As I said before, sorry I was posting my initial string of posts one after another without realising you had replied in the middle, definitely appreciate your input and first hand experience

Your follow up is even better, love the bat cave, given that I have only bought bike components and haven't managed to part with any yet I sometimes think I'll end up with a cupboard / shed / garage like that. I keep thinking, well maybe the next build will need ...

I did notice you gave the Fr. Belga model name as Franco Belga, that's that solved at least. Maybe something to do with the Circuit Franco Belge race? I hadn't looked closely at the 78 catalogue, interesting to see all the different bends in there, as you say: TdF, Franco Belga, Gimondi, Merckx, Defilippis, Pista. That after the 74 only mentions the Merckx, Gimondi and Pista, even saying the Merckx is sometimes known as the TdF. So probably best to disregard my earlier comment about understanding why a manufacturer would rationalise their offering!

What you say about the marketing material makes sense too, and may also explain why the measurements of neither of my bars match any of those in the 66 or 74 Cyclo-Pedia (especially given the 2 catalogues are so similar 8 years apart - only the drop on the Bobet gets longer - there's a joke there somewhere, so if they were both accurate you'd expect the years in between to all be similar too). Particularly confusing that the reach of my bars is so much shorter than those shown in the catalogues. I would guess my Grand Prix bars are a Gimondi bend, they are a bit more track like in the way the tops turn quite quickly and the ramps are a bit steeper and the Gimondi measurements aren't listed at least.

All the pics are interesting but the 'all original 1972 Motobecane' is exactly what I was looking for. A good data point to confirm that's what the logos looked like in the early 70s.

[MENTION=124730]SJX426[/MENTION] Same to you you, thanks for the pic. Another good data point. What a nerd

Is it bad form to put comments on velo-base if you think something has been mis-classified? I find it a bit difficult without out-and-out proof. Should I just ask myself if it really matters? Maybe just something like "I've seen these on an all original 1972 Motobecane so must be earlier"

Oh and btw I'm not planning to try and ream either of the stems, I think that's a step too far for me. So these two will be going in to my bat cave, errr I mean be sold on Ebay

The C&V Pro solution is to sell one and buy a Raleigh Pro frame and GB bars, and build that up.

Hahahaha

hmmm valid point I should really have a Raleigh ...

[MENTION=448961]veloham[/MENTION] - No it is not bad form to comment on Velo Base. I have done it and even added a part or two. The trick is that you have to register or sign up. Not a big deal to contribute. The most popular or most discussed items are captured. It is the obscure and less desirable items that need more info. One of our own runs that site, BTW.

Thanks for the comment and yes, I am a nerd in so many ways! Just ask my wife who describes me as being OCD on some topics. BTW you can click on the link and see more pics of this bar and stem combo and even navigate to my Le Champion as it was.
[IMG]1973 Motobecane Le Champion 24", on Flickr[/IMG]

heh I meant I was a nerd talking about data points, but good of you to own up too!

I don't think my wife understood quite how deep it went until I started this classic bike project. Apparently I'm the cat from Oi Frog (one of our 2yo's favourite books). If I ever write it up I think this will be the title page

Not sure if I should say it, but that was a nice looking bike. The bars look like they have a longer reach and possibly a deeper drop than mine. If ever you have them and a tape measure to hand, it would be interesting to know if they match up to any of the published bends.

Btw I think velo-base is generally great, as you say very good for the more common / sought after components. It's been a good starting place for most things I've tried to figure out. It's just a few of the comments verge on opinion rather than fact / knowledge. But they're pretty easy to filter out and I guess that's part of the fun.

@veloham - I still have all the parts from that bike including the bent frame and fork. The stem and HB are French dimensions, but I never reallyl measured the bar by itself. It is in a bin with other bike part bins and not to difficult to drag out to take measurements. BTW, I bought this bike in 1973, used. The PO had installed a kickstand, denting the chain stays and swapped the stock sew-ups for clinchers which I replaced with Rigida's and ran Specialized Turbo 1" tires.


I never really was able to bond with this bike and I don't know why. I was in the process when a car pulled in front of me, left hook, while I was cruising along at 21mph in 2008. The front wheel went right, the bars left and I went over, landing on the roof/windshield joint and then flew to the ground. Another story, but there is not an unbent part on the fork and the TT and DT were both bent. the aesthetics of this bike are hard to ignore and rival many popular ones, IMHO. I just can't throw it away.

Yours too, eh?

That's a fine looking set of bars n' stem, SJX. And a beauty of a bike.

[MENTION=29368]rootboy[/MENTION] - Thanks! More than is reasonable, from my perspective! Maybe the dented chainstays, squeaky brakes, and constant hunting for a quiet gear contributed to the lack of bonding. I now have a bonding affair going on with three bikes, the Pinarello, Rockhopper, and Colnago. N+1 works in this arena too!

This is the new old stem with the 'insert to line' line, clamp size 25.4mm, stem OD 22.2mm.

[MENTION=124730]SJX426[/MENTION] if you need one of these for your next Raleigh Pro build I am looking for a metric stem ...

I took some pictures of the bars as well, with sidebar shots (previous pics of the SL were from the seller):

[MENTION=448961]veloham[/MENTION], You should know that its CDO, at least got it in the correct obsessive order, sheesh.

I am using a Merckx bend, sleeved model 3ttt bar now, 42 cm width. Their shape if fine for my use, it would be better if I could find a 44cm pair though. If you or anyone else needs a 40cm 3ttt Merckx bar, the bulge type, let me know. I have a set that I won't be using due to the narrow width.

I might be exposing myself but you've lost me there, CDO?

Unless I ruin these SL bars cleaning them up I am going to force myself to love them!

Yeah, I only recently heard of this, so OCD that you have to place the acronym in alphabetical order.
I would first think of Collateralized Debt Obligation, the menace of 2008.

Wowzers.

Repechage has it, its just in alphabetical order, just a poor attempt at humor on my part. Sorry for the interruption.

Bill

Ha, don't worry, I thought you meant there was an order you were supposed to display pictures of stems or something, like LHS, RHS, Front. Thought I was being schooled in some C&V anality. Unlike Repechage I was pretty sure it wasn't a Collateralized Debt Obligation

Also I think I owe velobase an apology, my older (slightly) wiser self has gone back to the ttt Grand Prix listing and sees my younger foolish self jumped to the wrong conclusion. I was lumping the Grand Prix listing with the Record Grand Prix.

To make it clearer I think there needs to be a '3ttt Grand Prix' from the 60s as per verktyg's Tigra.

Then the ones I've been looking at are probably correctly described as a 2nd version

Although I think they could also do with a comment saying they were around from possibly late 60s to early 70s and a pic of the 72 bars. I've registered now, is it ok with you @verktyg if I use your pics?

Just found some fun plugs given the above, bit more exciting than 3ttt or Campagnolo. My bike has nothing really to do with him or the bikes he gave his name to, except maybe a different handlebar bend from the manufacturer of my bars, but he is a boss

Loved this write-up, especially the story about needing a bidon of champagne to get back in the race! Errr I mean, don't drink and ride kids.

Cycling Hall of Fame.com

Thanks for the kudos... Circuit Franco-Belge Race dated back to 1924. It was a late season race and until recently it took place in the border regions between France and Belgium. The race history is sketchy. It was an amateur race for a while and changed names several times during the past 6-7 years.

Fr. Belga or Franco-Belga was the Italian verbiage... The French used the Franco-Belge name. The race name had more meaning in the 1960's and early 70's especially in northwest Europe so it was used on a number of different cycling products including the type of bends on bars.

Some bar bends were named after racers from the 1930's to the 60's: e.g. Maes and Coppi bends!


Printing plates for graphics were the most expensive part of offset printing. Photographs or drawings had to be converted into a black and white negative format that could be used to produce an etched metal plate which then could be used in a printing press.... (there were a number of different processes but you get the idea).

Those plates were used over and over for years that's why you don't see a lot of changes or updates. (remember, the French exceeded the Brits in frugality)

Also, the opperant phrase was:
Les spécifications sont sujettes à modification sans préavis
Le specifiche sono soggette a modifiche senza preavviso
Specifications subject to change without notice!

That meant caveat emptor!

Bicycle handlebars were not high precision components! Most handlebars were bent in fixtures using manually operated levers. This left a lot of wiggle room for variations in dimensions!

This site shows various tube bending fixtures:

https://www.tubeforming.com/Dedicated_Tube_Benders.html


A few years ago I measured all of the bars that I had in my Bat Cave stash plus a bunch of the bars that I liked or didn't like on the bikes that I ride. (N=40+)

I measured the widths of the bars at the widest points across the tops and the across the drops (not center to center) plus the forward reach and the distance from the bar tops to the drops - the lengths of the drops too.

None were sized to catalog specs! They included 3TTT, Cinelli, ITM, Specialized (made by Nitto), SR and Nitto bars. The dimensions even varied between bars of the same models and stamped sizes! Bars stamped 42cm were as narrow as 40.5cm across the tops!

Many bars made during the 1960's and early 70's had very long reaches (also called "throws"). Some old French alloy bars have reaches, as long as 150mm!

The reach on 3TTT bars were generally shorter than most other brands of classic bars.

Another thing, very few of the bars that I measured were round in the center area. It could be the result of having been clamped in a stem or just not being accurately made.

Something else to note, back in the day, many bars used with barcon shifters had 1" to 1 1/2" cut off the drops for knee clearance!

I've never seen the "INSERT TO LINE" stamped into any 3TTT stem before the late 70's. You may have a stem that was made for Raleigh and they requested that stamped into the quill.


I rode "on the drops" most of the time from 1964 until the early 80's. I did mostly off road riding from the late 70's until 2006 when I started riding on the road again.

I used wide MTB bars on my lugged 531, 700c off road bike. I have wide shoulders and I noticed that when I started riding my road bikes again, the bars were too narrow!

With my arms held straight out and my palms facing inward the distance between them is about 46cm! I can ride 42cm to 46cm bars with 44cm over the outside width at the tops is most comfortable. My hand are mostly on the flats at the levers or on the hoods. I like short reach bars and short top tubes because I have a short bull neck.


@SJX426 You HAD a beautiful bike! That was one of the best looking aqua blue Le Champions I'd seen.

Keep in mind, many of the velo-base.com posts are anecdotal.... The listmaster does a pretty good job of keeping things accurate but...

There are several places for comments below the main entries on the velo-base web site. I don't post comments unless I KNOW that the info is accurate and I hesitate to sound negative in any of my comments.


BTW, do you wear an anorak?


verktyg

Chas.

Haha

Only when it's raining

I did put a comment on the grand prix bars VeloBase.com - Component: 3ttt Grand Prix (2nd version) I know what you mean though, it is really hard to know for sure. I don't like caveating with "I think"s and "AFAIK"s on something that's supposed to be a reference site, but I don't know for sure and I didn't want to contradict, or criticise, just extend the range and add a bit of info. Let me know if you think it could be phrased differently or should claim less!

I still have 2 days before I can upload pics or add components, but I plan to also put my SL bars on there and your Grand Prix bars from the 65 Tigra as '3ttt Grand Prix (1st version)' if that's ok? I definitely found it confusing when I first looked so hopefully that will make it more obvious.

I feel like it all makes a bit of sense to me now at least. My synopsis is the T.T.T. bars on your Tigra are the 1st (or early at least) version Grand Prix bars from around the mid 60s. There's a couple of versions of the Grand Prix Special stem from the same era that (usually) have the 5 colour striped sticker. The Grand Prix (2nd version) bars have a similar sticker (but with the model name and "made in Italy" added) and probably date to late 60s or early 70s. Around the same time, i.e. early 70s, the Record stem and bars are introduced, both with the triangle 'mod Record' sticker, the bars having similar engraving to the contemporary 2nd version Grand Prix bars. I would guess that the Record bars (usually) had the oval 'superleggero' sticker, i.e. all Record bars were marketed as superlight at this time rather than it being a separate model. My final guess is that they amalgamated the Grand Prix and Record line and introduced a new even lighter model as the actual 'Superleggero'.

And yes, it is raining

I meant to say, very interesting regarding Raleigh requesting the 'insert to line' line. It did strike me as a later feature for the first version of the stem. Good job I put it on Ebay as appropriate for a Raleigh Pro

Veloham, Nothing that I read in your VB comment looks, or reads, poorly to me. Fairly well worded and factual, no claims the beggar the mind, etc. And, there are far worse there, unfortunately.

Bill

Thanks Bill

Not sure why the Grand Prix got a sleeve at that point. Although maybe it started as a 'Standard' (as per the first 74 catalogue on velo-pages) and they had the Grand Prix name going spare. The sleeve must be a cheaper way of strengthening the middle, going back to Chombi's question. Anyway I think I'm done speculating on these bars. I'm happy with mine, just need to clean them up and use them now!