Given the choice, would you use inaccurate decals?

Haydino's thread about decals & touch ups got me to thinking about this...

Let's assume you purchase a frame; for the sake of discussion, let's make it Italian & call it a Thingoretti Modela A. The paint & decals are a mess, but it's otherwise in great shape. However, when you get the frame home, you do a little precise measuring & discover it's not a Modela A, but a more obscure Modela B, made for only a single year before the entire series was discontinued. They're both fine frames, the only difference between them being the dropout spacing & decals; the Modela A's decals are easily recognized and considered classics, the Modela B's are actually pretty dorky by anyone's standards and on top of that, maybe only a few serious aficionados have ever even heard of the Modela B.

Which decal set would you apply after repainting the frame, assuming only an expert could ever tell the difference? The historically correct-but-dorky set, or the inaccurate but well-known classics? Or would you consider yourself free to invent- to mix-n-match to suit your taste?

I've used inaccurate decals because they looked a lot better than the stock decals - and on a bike that would never be sold
That's simply a personal taste thing.

Misidentifying the maker of a frame would be an ethical question.

I'm a dork generally, a dork about history AND a bike dork...

I pick dorky, but "correct" decals.

I'd use correct decals -- but, as in the case of my recent resto piece - I used Velo-cals decals with correct font, but a different color

Also, if its a re-paint, you are already taking a hit on value, so I don't think you are hurting yourself too much using a different decal though

As an example if I was re-painting my later model Pinarello , but decided I wanted to use vintage Pinarello decals - its my bike - I'm just making it more pleasing to my eye, collector value be darned

Would definitely draw the line at anything close to mis-representing the bike though . As in, I wouldn't put a Brain or NEuron decal on a bike with an unknown tube set

You CAN do it, but if you're soliciting opinions...it's not what I'd do. It's all taste...and if you like it, do what thou wilt, but I'd prefer to hew close to original.

That said...a member here has a hilarious MAASI...I have my Huffy, and I'm planning on putting WIndsor decals on a Cinelli. No absolutes

Generally, I'm not a fan of using things that "look" vintage on things that aren't.

The question seems to have a contradiction: a true collector, someone who could have this dilemma, would've never repainted the frame in the first place...

It depends for me upon whether you plan to sell the bike. If I planned to keep a bike (I always do, my stable rarely shrinks) I'd probably go with the better looking decals, but if anybody ever asked I'd be the pendantic dork that would explain that it's technically wrong.

If planning on selling... well, I'd have to be up-front about it, and frankly that would detract from the value of a good restoration, so I'd go with the originals.

Plus...even if you're honest, that person might not be when/if they re-sell. Although you were scrupulous, you still might, inadvertently, send a disguised bike among the population.

An excellent point.

Kind of like placing a Prancing Horse emblem on a Fiero 308 conversion.

Or a Lambo shield on a Countach kit car.

Now, when the same marque, just wrong typography or era, not my taste but I am tolerant.

As [MENTION=442798]bulldog1935[/MENTION] says, this is not an ethical question. It's an aesthetic one.

I don't think there is an authoritative arbiter of who is a true collector, so anyone can call oneself a collector, with original or forged decals.

Sorry if I sound snippy. I'm having a horrific day.

Make your own custom decals, all it takes is some borrowed images from the 'net and MacPaint:


Well, for a good bike I'd want original, of course. Your hypothetical Modelo A and Modelo B are certainly a grey area. And some here would take you to task for it, endlessly debating the degrees of fraud you are committing by foisting off your POS Modleo B for the much more desirable (and valuable!) Modelo A.

I think there is an ethical component as well...but I think aesthetics, more often than not (never seen an exception) lead to the same place regardless.

It just rarely looks good, you'll always know and there is the chance that someone down the road ends up deceived.

no, if its your bike for 40 years and you want to decorate it, there is no ethical question.
It's officially no one else's business.
My Raleigh Grand Prix still says Raleigh Grand Prix, it just says it nicer than the original decals that I never liked.
(The paint is still original, just stripped the old worn decals, polished it up, tipped the lugs and put on new decals)

If you try to make it something it's not and especially sell it, that would be different.

I agree with noglider. There is no ethical question here unless you later decide to sell a bike and don't reveal to the buyer that the decals don't match the frame. Folks here generally buy bikes for their own pleasure. For some, pleasure comes from keeping a bike excruciatingly original. For others the pleasure (perverted IMHO) comes from ripping off all of the original components and slapping on brifters and new industrial-looking blacked-out components. Most of us are probably somewhere in between those two extremes.

Edit: A caveat to the above is if you took something extremely rare (e.g. Greg LeMond's 1989 TdeF final time trial bike) and changed the decals because you didn't like the original style. That would be a crime against C&V history.

Tough question. None of my bikes are especially valuable, so I don't worry about it. I usually do mitigation on the finish, and don't replace decals. I have repainted a few low end bikes and left them un-decaled.

If I did own a real gem, I hope I would leave it as-is if the finish was decent, or restore it as faithfully as possible. I would worry that it could be misrepresented if it left my hands.

Hope you have a lovely weekend to balance out your lousy day! You're always so positive, you get a pass on -- oh, I dunno -- about 100 'snippy' posts in my book (not that your post was snippy....)

About the decals...I've never changed any, but on a recent MB-2 project, I only went back with the downtube and headbadge ones, omitting all the others, just because I wanted a cleaner look for my commuter. I dunno, maybe I hoped the crooks would think it was an MB-5 Not sure I would've ordered up an MB-Zip set and put those on my MB-2. Just seems a little off. Ultimately, I'm not one to tell a guy what to do with his/her project.

What about a different shade of paint? Still sacrilege? New color scheme? Highlighted lugs? Painting over chrome?

There are lots of interpretations. I dislike the late 70's Colnago paint schemes. But, others are good, so I might choose early 70's paint instead.

I did manage to snag an early Master... and have been thinking of having FUN with a repaint. Why not?

I suppose I have a dilemma similar to the OP's, however.

I bought my old Colnago in 1982. But, the best I can tell, it is probably a late 60's model, and relatively rare. Some people on this site, however, have pointed out that it appears to have a more common early 70's paint scheme.

I vaguely remember the guy who facilitated the sale said something about paint, but that was 2/3 of a lifetime ago.

So, if I ever choose to repaint it, do I go with retro 60's paint, or put it back to the 70's paint that it has had for most of its life?

I suppose a serious collector would demand 60's styling, and it may be worth a pretty penny... but I like my old bike, and would be happy if it looked like it was when I bought it 35 years ago.

The deceiving person in a sale is responsible, if there is a deceiver and a sale. You need both for an unethical act to occur.

Thank you, [MENTION=210999]simmonsgc[/MENTION].

Upon further reflection, I would ask of the OP...perhaps the title for this thread might more accurately be "Decal morals?" That is, with moral consideration stemming from individual and personal conceptions of right and wrong, and ethical considerations being more externally imposed. Maybe that's too pedantic, but I guess I think of it as more of a moral question. We really get into the weeds with some of this stuff, don't we? Ultimately, like my Mom said, "be honest, and do good."

Here's a "Unique" frame that showed up on E-Bay today.

Colnago Super Columbus steel mixte frameset frame fork 52 55 USED fixie fixed | eBay

It appears to be an old paint job. But none of the frame's features look like a genuine Colnago. Perhaps a Sport or Junior (still unlikely), but not a Super. However, it does appear to be an upper-mid range Italian build.

What I have to wonder is if some guy was riding a Colnago back in the 80's, and decided to build a bike for his wife or daughter to match.

Then 30 years, and 3 owners later, it hits the used bike market and nobody knows what happened. Does the seller even know?

If it's my bike, I'll do what I want but what I want would almost certainly have a strong connection to what the frame actually was. In the example given, I'd probably want the better looking decals but I'd try to get custom decals made that identified the correct model in the style of the incorrect decals.

I'm not the sort to do any sort of restoration that even a casual collector is likely to mistake for original, as seen, for instance, in my recent Motobecane Grand Record makeover. What I did with that bike is unmistakably and in multiple ways a reboot. However, I wanted to keep as much of the original spirit of the bike as was possible within the other changes I was making. For instance, I kept the same theme with the lugs and two seat post panels in a contrasting color, but the colors I chose (not to mention the fact that I went with powder coating) were miles from any historical precedent. Likewise with the decals, I tried to get decals that matched the original font as closely as possible (not least because I think it looks really good), but in a different color.

The choice I made that is particularly relevant to this thread was the tubing decal. I got the correct French Reynolds 531 "3 Tubes" decal for this bike. Most later Grand Records, I think, were full 531 and I could easily have gotten a decal claiming (incorrectly) that's what my bike was. It was important to me to get the correct decal. Again, as bulldog1935 says, this was not an ethical decision. I can't imagine anyone will ever trust the tubing decal on this bike again. I wanted it to be correct because to my sense of taste the correct decal was much "better" (in a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance sense) than any other decal would have been.

On the other hand, if my bike had been a year newer and the correct Reynolds decal would have been the French 3 Tubes decal with the bright yellow letters, I probably would have still gotten the one with the gold letters anyway because the color clash would have outweighed the precisely correct decal and the gold lettered version would still correctly identify the tubing.

Sorry to hear you're having terrible day, Tom; I hope it gets better.

Actually, if you read the initial post, the parameters of this little thought experiment posit that the Modelo A & Modelo B are the same, aside from dropout spacing & decals; that's to say there is no implied difference in the quality of the frame or its materials, only that our hypothetical Modelo B is a tad newer by, let's say- a year or so.

Edit: Just to clarify, I've personally been one to err on the side of history, or at least stick to original designs as closely as possible (color notwithstanding; I'm a pro designer, and tend to have ideas along those lines). Fwiw, I was kinda prompted to this little ethical exploration by my Pinarello Asolo. It's a terrific ride & in excellent condition (full Campy Daytona, btw); however, at some point in the past, it has received new decals. The paint seems to be original, similar to other Pianrellos of its era, but apparently the original brand markings flaked off at some point (old Pinarello decals are kinda notorious for that). The current decals are correct to the period, but they did prompt my curiosity.

Interesting.

There's a guy who races cyclocross around here who has a green Kona Major Jake on which he replaced the Kona decal on the white downtube panel with a Colnago decal. It's actually pretty neat, but I'm pretty sure no one has ever wondered for long if it's really a Colnago.

But if you're the one who modified it, you're the one who set the table for the dinner, whether you prepared the meal or not.

Note...I said an ethical component...not that it was in and of itself unethical

(Hopefully our semantics may cheer ya' up).

Regardless...it typically looks off, though in the OP's example that's likely less of a concern.