The Thin Man 

In the past, I have seen numbers of posts from those of you who work with leather to produce beautiful pieces for our vintage steeds. It is clear there is some knowledge on the board when it comes to this medium.

I have a Brooks saddle that has a pattern embossed on it. I'd like to do roughly the same treatment that has been achieved on this Brooks x Vault by Vans Swift honey.



[More info/pix here]

What suggestions would you give to achieve this look?
Is it possible to coat it so that the substrate doesn't come off while riding like dye may?

Any suggestions are quite welcome.

xiaoman1 

I would be interested to know about this too.... you might want to "emboss" the leather before highlighting it might be difficult to do fine detailing by hand. I have not seen the saddle in the pic, but suspect it was "embossed" (tooled) to get that level of detail.
There are multiple articles on how to dye "tooled" leather on the net along with some great videos.If applied correctly the leather dye will not rub off on you shorts etc.
Leather experts will chime in.
Ben

rootboy 

That saddle wasn't tooled. At least not in the conventional sense, as in leather tooling, which involves cutting the grain side of the leather, with a blade, and using various shaped stamps to lower the leather in the desired pattern. But that must be done, usually, while the leather is damp, and before it is sealed or dyed, and finished.
The Brooks site says the saddle was done with an embossing plate. Which means the design was simply pressed into the leather. While slightly damp, I would guess. Then it was dyed and finished.

The problem with trying to replicate this is...your saddle has already been dyed and finished on the grain side. So you could try to add pigment to the already present embossing, but I fear it won't work.
You might be able to strip the finish off somehow, dye the embossing, and see if the darker dye stays when you wipe the surface. But I would think it would ruin the saddle.

rhm

I agree with @rootboy.

Maybe if you post a photo or two of the saddle you have, and how it's embossed, we could give you a better idea of the options.

I don't know what the Brooks X-Vault saddle is, or how they make it; I suspect the pattern is printed onto it with dye or stain or paint. Whatever it is, it is probably not an option for you. You may have other options, though.

rootboy 

Yeah RHM, the site said the saddle is ... "The saddle motif is applied with a moulded emboss plate, which is a very unique process." I suspect they apply the dye at the same time. But I'm not sure how they do that. Applied to the plate?

rootboy 

Who was that person who actually cuts a design into the smooth grain side of the leather? I can't think of name at the moment.

rootboy 

Here's samples of one woman's work. By actually carving into the leather, Interesting. But I would never do this to a brand new saddle.
https://www.custommade.com/custom-ha...y/karaginther/

rootboy 

here's some very interesting work

Obsidian Monarch

rhm

Yeah, that is some bizarre stuff.



On the one hand, I like the designs and the effect. The workmanship is impressive.

On the other hand, it's a terrible idea. I cannot imagine what anyone would want one of those saddles for.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

That 'Obsidian Monarch' guy, he's getting better too:



But a lot of his designs are, in my opinion, awful.

xiaoman1 

Tooled Leather definition:
What is tooled leather? It’s actually very simple, it’s any piece of leather that has been worked on in any way to have a design, initials, pattern or other decorative look applied to it.
You use leather tools to make any decorative designs or patterns in leather. So tooled leather, means a piece of leather that has been tooled, or worked on, to make a design on it.


As mentioned above, Brooks most likely used a large die to cut and emboss (tool) the leather at the same time. Almost all of the mass produced saddles would have it done this way to reduce costs much like the "custom" (not really) boots and belts that we still see today.
One off's, meaning those that are not production embossed can be quite expensive because they are labor intensive...even if the same pattern is attempted there will be slight differences because of the hand work etc....compare the differences in CWD, Devoucoux, Hermes saddles with the mass produced "tooled" ones and the difference is quite apparent.
If you are planning to do some simple tooling on an existing bicycle saddle, depending on the level of intricacy you might want to start off with a simple design.
Tandy makes a range of embossing tools that you could use to "customize" you saddle....of course, you will need to place a block on the opposite side of the piece you are working on to get a clean stamp and reduce rebound and double stamp...if you are using swivel cutting tools, that's another matter.
If you are really interested in doing it yourself I would suggest googling leather tooling to get a primer...too much info that can't be relayed here. There will also be information on antiquing.
Good Luck, Ben

rootboy 

I couldn't agree more, RHM. Cutting down through the grain side on this type of utilitarian object , that you're going to sit on and depend on for at least some longevity, I can't help but think is a bad idea. It would be interesting to hear some feedback from someone who has used one of here saddles, to see how it has held up.
She is very talented. Look at the amount of very detailed work required on some of those. Impressive, really. But I believe it is a somewhat questionable canvas for her considerable talents.

rootboy 

What might be interesting, RHM, is some tooling, without the step of cutting the grain side, on one of your saddle blanks, before finishing. I wonder how it would turn out? Perhaps the process of forming the leather would really distort the design.

I still like plain old saddles. An old friend of mine, who is an amazing leather worker, told me an interesting anecdote one time. He worked in the shop of a journeyman saddle maker for a time. The old master saddler told him that while he enjoyed looking at tooled saddles, he preferred to leave most of the leather on his saddles un-tooled, as he claimed the tooling weakened the leather and he wanted his saddles to last a hundred years.

rhm

I did some tooling on the top of a some saddles a couple years ago. As you say, cutting into the leather, especially into the toughest part of the leather, doesn't seem like a good idea. So I did these entirely without cutting; just pressing the leather down.








But I did that after forming the leather; in the process of forming a piece of leather into the shape of a bicycle saddle you have to apply a lot of brutal force, and if you do any embossing or tooling before shaping the leather, you'll lose it. At the very least, you'll ruin it. Basically, you have to do the rough stuff first, and treat the embossing as a finishing touch. As @xiaoman1 said, you have to have a block underneath. That is, you have to press the leather between a tool and an anvil. So with a saddle, the 'anvil' has to be a piece of wood carved to the exact shape of the underside of the saddle. So I've made a block that shape for embossing the top the 'Swallow' shape, or the sides of a 'professional' saddle. But it's a lot of work.

I'd be happy to do it again, if anyone wants that, but it'll have to be a specific request.

xiaoman1 

The first ones appear to be "cut" after dyeing which will effect the top grain and last on is "tooled" using embossing which should not have an adverse effect on the saddle if not done too deep..if tooled with a swivel blade that may be an issue.
As far as the design goes everyone is welcome to their opinions..for me they are not my cup of tea either, but a difference of opinion is what makes the world interesting. JM2C'S, Ben

xiaoman1 

Nice work, the use of a "buck" keeps leather and tool in place.
Best, Ben

noglider 

I cringe whenever anyone applies a modifier to the word "unique," even though it has become a common practice. I guess they mean very unusual.

rootboy 

Me too. It's so UN-unique. :€

rhm

It is so true. Every time I read a word so exuberantly misused, I literally want to snuff. I mean, it is just so gracious, it grades on my nerves, and I just loose it, dig¿

noglider 

The Thin Man 

Hi guys.

Thanks to all of you who posted. Some really great info is found within this thread.

Truth be told, I hadn't actually purchased the saddle but I was going to purchase the Vans saddle above and try to emulate the treatment as shown in the original image. But, this thread has changed my mind. I love the pattern but hearing that it's not really feasible has me going a different direction. A much less expensive one since that saddle is $220.

Thanks again for saving me the cost and the attempts that likely would have been futile.