jimmuller 

I have to come to the good pastor's defense here. Bob, I'm not sure that was one you had serviced. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, seein' as how it was a French FW on my Peugeot and I'd upgraded various bits a long time ago. I'm pretty sure you put it back together though.

Of course as Bob knows, we had another FW event, this one on the tandem, also a Suntour FW but I don't recall the model right now. A section of one of the sprockets broke off and took two teeth with it. Inspection after the event showed that another sprocket had lost a tooth also. Bob rebuilt that one too!

repechage

Tandems are tough on freewheels, finding tandem a specific freewheel is possible but very uncommon.

Bandera

Nope, once again I'll assert that Regina FWs were not good Quality in body build, tooth profile or puller design "back when" at premium prices with no cog replacement support for us folk racing state-side and selling/servicing them at retail in the USA.

What Euro pros rode meant little to nothing to me in my shop servicing my customers while a high quality, durable, slick shifting, easily changed and serviceable FW w/ replacement cogs at hand for reasonable prices did.
Sun Tour and later Shimano HG worked for us after being disatisfied w/ Regina and other sub standard Euro FW Quality and support.

Ever had a Junior racer show up needing a compliant gearing FW for tomorrow's race or a teammate needing a fresh 13T for the district TT in the morning?
I have, and built to their requirements w/ ST or Shimano cogs on hand.

What the Euro Pro teams used didn't matter then or ever to me, ST/Shimano cog boards serviced my customers for the races they competed in with reliable, low cost service on a durable FW body w/ properly shaped cogs for quick/solid shifts.

PS: I know what I installed "back when" for our team.

cadillacmike68, What is the reference source for:

Really?
Please enlighten us with some facts from back then about drivetrain use by the Pros.

-Bandera

cadillacmike68

Not in the 60s or early 70s you didn't. You fail to mention the dates of when you were working with racers here in the US.

Yes, the Euros could care less about racing over here, they still do. So what? The undeniable fact is that more TDFs and GDIs & VEs were won with Regina drivetrains than anything else in the time I am referring to.

The notched bodies were a problem - unless you used a DA puller, but in the early 70s there was no such thing, so yeah that is a valid complaint, but the STs were just as bad, and I don't think they existed before 1974. And ShimaNO didn't get going with DA until around 1980. This is Past the time I am referring to. So you weren't using ST or DA "back then", If you were even working "back then", because it didn't exist.

If Regina's suck so bad, then why are they going for $50-$100 or more on fleabay all the time??

And you sure as hell could get a comprehensive set of Regina cogs. they even made cases to hold the different positions. Of course you needed to be a budding rocket scientist to know which cog went where, and that the tooth ranges were, but they were there it you wanted to get them, and the catalog explained all the different positions and teeth ranges.

And you might as well admit it, that you know for a fact that NO ONE in the euro pro circuit was using suntour, or shimaNO, who's major claim to fame "back then" was the stamped steel crane derailleur. Do you remember that one??? A few of the french teams might have used Maillard, but everyone else was on Regina. It wasn't until the 1980s that the japanese component groups started making inroads in the big european tour circuit.

But that's not the time period I am referring to.

jimmuller 

In fact it was a tandem FW, had "TANDEM" stamped on the body. But I believe the sprockets weren't any different from any others. Bob told me what was different inside, maybe more pawls or bigger pawls or springs, or something, but I don't remember what he said. Since then I've managed to find at least one more tandem FW just like that one. When you're putting in steady miles on a 35 y.o. French tandem you are always worried about spares.

I confess I've always taken FWs for granted.

Bandera

'68 and and on for a couple of decades active in the domestic racing community rings a bell.
How about you?

I'm not cognizant of:

Can you support this assertion with some references from that Past time?
We were a bit busy trying to get on local podiums at the time and didn't pay much attention to the flavors of drive-train in use by Pros in Europe for some reason or other. In '72 a 6 cog Atom FW w/ a Union chain was our proven choice, not Regina for example.

-Bandera

cadillacmike68

Sure for your stateside local racing, which was considered "quaint" by the big time euro pros. And thus my point rings home. You couldn't use asian stuff because it didn't Exist back in 72. And you are referring to the local domestic racing circuit which was never "professional" back then. And your self professed lack of concern for what the europeans were using doesn't bolster your counterclaim at all.

Can you tell me ONE TDF winning team or individual in the 70s that used any asian drivetrain components? I can tell you that Team Raleigh used Regina and that covers several years and both individual and team tour wins. Further, NONE of the italian bikes back prior to the 1980s used would ever stoop to french or german components (maybe rims, but they had Fiame and Ambrosio so they didn't even need those) and that was a majority of the frames in use. Same goes from french and English makers. Although this started to change very quickly after 1980, But I am referring to the 60s and 70, not the 80s.

I'm not buying it. Kudos for your efforts, back then with stateside racing. It needed all the help it could get, we still do not have a large scale pro racing circuit here compared to europe and we have approx the same population.

I blame the automobile. Car ownership here is multiple times the rate that it is in Europe. My family of 2 has 4 cars (one of which just tossed out a couple of main engine bearings ), but only 2 bikes. No one wanted to pedal their a$$ off for hours a day training when they could just drive to where they wanted to go. This was very telling in the 50s and 60s when bikeracing enlarged greatly in europe.

Bandera

Velobase agrees with our experience, assessment and recommendations on FW choice from back when:

"In my opinion, Atom freewheels were far better made than those from Regina including most top of the line Regina Oro freewheels with gold colored sprockets."

VeloBase.com - Component: Atom (5 speed, silver cogs)


Here's a nice spread on one of Raymond Poulidor's race bikes a Mercier – Special Poulidor w/ Maillard FW.
2nd in so many grand tours counts, No?

Raymond Poulidor ? Mercier ? Special Poulidor | velociao


"In the mid-1970s, SunTour and later, Shimano took the freewheel business away from the long-established European manufacturers, such as Atom, Campagnolo, Cyclo, Everest, Maillard, Regina, TDC... by virtue of greatly superior design and workmanship"

-Sheldon Brown

Bandera

What type of non-quaint bicycle racing did you participate in back then?

-Bandera

JohnDThompson 

The Atom "Tandem" freewheel on my Gitane tandem bike has four pawls rather than two. The cogs don't appear to be anything different from their usual cogs.

fietsbob

At about the time they became smart enough to put a splined remover in them, the America,
they began to fade into the background as Shimano & Sun Tour gained Market share..

you going to hang it in a museum ?, the normal use, wears stuff out.. consumables..

steelbikeguy

here's a shot of the body of the tandem freewheel I built up for you... (it was you, wasn't it??)




readers will note that the word "TANDEM" is stamped into the body. My recollection is that the SunTour tandem freewheel bodies had wider pawls, but that's just an ancient memory... never took one apart to verify.


Steve in Peoria

jimmuller 

Yep. Exactly like the one I had been using, the one which broke the teeth. Same sprocket sizes even so it is a good quick swap should we have another "FW event".

T-Mar

It's hard to believe that USA was different from Canada, where we had Regina service kits, in both Extra and Oro versions.

There is no such thing as 'good Quality". Quality is an absolute. You either have it or you don't. There are no grades or levels of quality.

The issue with quality, is that every consumer has different expectations. The marketers, designers and manufacturers create a product, hoping they have properly gauged the public's needs and expectations for a given price point. If the product performs as intended, then it is a quality product. However, if the market has been misjudged the market, then the public's perception of the product is poor, despite it still being a quality product.

In the case of Regina freewheels, your opinion of them being poor is just that, an opinion. Regina, may not have responded fast enough to Maeda and Shimano raising the bar on consumer expectations but you can't say that they were not a quality product.

T-Mar

Both Maeda/SunTour and Shimano had a presence in the American and European (pro) racing fraternity in the early 1970s. There were Japanese racing bicycles in the American market at least as early as 1971. They typically used Maeda/SunTour derailleurs and freewheels, on models such as the American Eagle Road Compe, C.Itoh Professional and Fuji Newest. Shimano made its presence felt with the 1973 release of the Dura-Ace group, including the two notch freewheels. By 1974-1975, there was a fairly wide selection of Dura-ace models including the Apollo MK IV, Fuji Ace, Miyata MX-P, Panasonic Pro and Sekine SHX.

In Europe, to promote the 1973 introduction of Dura-Ace, Shimano sponsored the Netherlands based Ketting pro team and the Belgium based Flandria-Shimano-Carpenter pro team. The latter was the subject of a controversy surrounding the 1973 World Championships. Flandria's Freddy Maertens was equipped with Shimano and rode for the Belgium team, along with Eddy Merckx on Campagnolo. Both were favourites to win and Tullio Campagnolo made it clear to the Belgium team that "Shimano mustn't be allowed to win the championship". Maertens lost when he was reportedly ridden into the barracades by Gimondi but the Belgian officials refused to file a protest on Maerten's behalf and offend Campagnolo.

While Japan did have racing presence in the early 1970s, it was still minor. My recollection from the early 1970s is that the vast majority of amateur racers were still heavily influenced by the Europeans. I recall most of the lower category riders being on French equipment, unless they had money to afford Campagnolo. Upper category riders tended to ride Campagnolo.

In terms of the non-competitive market, the French dominated the high volume, entry level, market during the early half of the boom, while the Japanese took it over in the latter half. The only market segment that the Italians dominated was the high end, which was relatively small. Consequently, I'd have to say that Regina freewheels were were OEM spec on relatively small volumes of early 1970s models, compared to French and Japanese freewheels. If I I had to pick a nationality that I feel dominated the North American freewheel market during 1970-1974, I'd go with Japanese.

One area of significant market penetration for Shimano in 1973-1974 were the Dura-Ace side pull brakes. A lot of otherwise Campagnolo (Nuovo) Record equipped bicycles were spec'd with Universal 61 center-pull brakes to hit a lower price point. Many of these owners installed the attractively priced Dura-Ace sidepulls soon after they were released.

The Shimano Crane derailleur was not pressed steel. It used aluminum pivot castings, aluminum parallelogram arms and aluminum cage arms. IMO, it outperformed the Camapagnolo Nuovo Record and circa 1974 I swapped out the latter for the former on my race bicycle. I also used the Dura-Ace brakes and a Maeda freewheel. The other non-Italian component was a Frenh Satri-Gallet seat post, which was far easier to adjust than the Campagnolo post.

SteelCharlie

On the first, Mr. Webster says "Quality (3) a degree of excellence
his example being "inferior quality"

And with that in mind you are quite right that I cannot say they were a not a quality product because they did indeed possess inferior quality. Unfortunately not the level of quality that won hearts. And that is/was not an opinion but a simple fact.

I suspect that Mr. Bandera's comments reflect a real-er world than Regina-ers care for

have a nice day

T-Mar

Mr. Webster is a layman, not a professional in the quality field. His definition is subjective and vague. It is useless to anybody making or selling a product. To make a product, you need requirements which can be measured. Quality is conformance to requirements, as defined by the manufacturer. The disconnect is that the consumer is only aware of the design and manufacturing requirements to a limited extent. When a consumer feels the product is not performing up to their expectations, it is entirely possible that the product meets the requirements established by the company. I was not making a statement about the relative merits of Regina freewheels but a statement on the proper use of quality, as a word.

Bandera

In English the same word can have different or more precise meanings in a specific technical/professional use context, sometimes in a wider cultural context.
"Quality" is one for example.


A well designed and controlled industrial process will produce product that falls within the upper & lower control limits of QC/QA with a high level of confidence.
Straight up Deming/Jung SPC processes as used by Maeda & Shimano "back when".

Contrasted with Regina who proudly advertised their lack of SPC controls:
"Instead of statistical control 100% control is used"

We know how to design, implement and control an SPC industrial process but how does one implement “100%" control”?
Just my guess and for grins if a Master FW body assembler, let’s call him Joe, quickly and skillfully built Regina ORO FW bodies smooth operating bodies would move on to the next process station. Joe is sick one day and Jack the apprentice assembler takes over his tasks without the experience and competence of the Master.

In my shop in ’72 we opened a carton of Oro freewheels. The first spins like a top, purrs like a kitten and is installed with ease: a Joe FW.
The second is as rough as a sailors language, and wobbles like one on payday Saturday night.
This one is is rejected as unacceptable Quality to be installed for my customer: a Jack FW.
This was the final inspection for QC/QA being performed by the retail customer. Do I get to say what Regina Quality was?
Sure, I was the Final Inspector.
Inconsistent product is one output of a process operating out of control limits or lacking them, not what I Required in my shop for my customers by my standards of what was/not acceptable Quality.

“Suitable quality is determined by product users, clients or customers”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_assurance

What did that matter? Those Jack FWs were paid for and sat in the Returns bin until my sales rep came around to (be forced) to take them back for credit. Time, which is $, wasted and capital tied up. If those $ were invested in a couple of cases of inner tubes those would be sold over & over before bum Regina FW credit hit my books. Positive & negative effects on Gross Margin Return on Investment matters in staying in business. What was the return rate on ST & Shimano FWs? Close to zero.
ST & Shimano in, the Euros out. I had a business to run at a profit, not a hobby.


Suitability for Use is the real world metric for a product's Quality, and is comparative with competing products in actual use.

Back to the shop. It’s a Friday night in '72, the shop is closed to customers and six teammates have their race wheels needing be have FWs changed to RR gearing.
Type R uses a fragile shallow two notch puller design with flimsy “ears” on the FW body.
Type A uses a deep secure and robust splined puller.
Failure/Damage would mean a long, ugly and expensive process versus going home for supper.
Which design of FW would you have installed for the District TT champion knowing that you will be doing this several times? (Hint: Not R.)
If a FW designed for racing can't be easily and reliably installed & removed w/o damage several times in it's service life it's not suitable for that use in my team.
An inferior design by R for the real world use by race mechanics but:

“Quality is Designed in, not Inspected in.”
-W.E. Deming


-Bandera

veloham

This was all great reading, nothing like a heated bike forums thread to get the blood pumping

My first c&v build is nearing completion and is early 70s Euro with a Regina Extra Oro 5 speed and Record S chain (bit later I know but the price and aesthetic swayed me from an earlier 50 Oro, maybe a mistake given some of the comments above). Bitten by the bug I have another in the pipeline, late 70s French and it will have an Atom 77 Compact (6 speed) and Sedisport chain. My feeling so far has been that the Euro will be for poncing around and the French for riding, but will be interesting for me to experience the difference!

Anyway thanks for the read, really enjoy all the 'back-in-the-day' info