Recently I gave my experience with a used B17 saddle (comfortable but has squashed with prior use and now bulges into my thigh). While I ponder trying a Professional or B17 Narrow or a Rivet Independent, I’ve decided to butcher and block this one. I've read threads here and elsewhere on how to do this, and there seems to be a fair bit of variation. My plan is to:

1) Cut away leather on the sides, as marked with painter’s tape. I’ll leave flaps that can be joined underneath for support.
2) Loosen the adjusting bolt a bit.
3) Get it wet with warm water. Per a post by [MENTION=73614]rhm[/MENTION], I won’t dunk it, as I often see recommended, but probably spritz it with a spray bottle to saturate it, to keep from leeching out any solubles with the water. I'll do this till it's saturated and soft.
4) When it’s good and wet, I'll pull the flaps under, clamp them together, and then I’m thinking of using some string, or something that won’t mark the leather, to tie the sides to shape the saddle to be as narrow as possible.
5) At this point I'm thinking to press a hard tube or dowel on top, down the center-line, lengthwise. I’m thinking from the rear center-line hole to about an inch past the front hole. The goal here is to get a modest relief channel for the perineum. I might use a CO2 cartridge for this as the tool, since that seems to have about the right diameter.
6) I’ll then let it air dry (no heat), sand/buff the edges, trim the material on the support band underneath, and lash those flaps together either with leather string or zip ties. Then tighten the bolt a bit, apply some Proofide, and enjoy my Swallow-like saddle.

Anyone see any major issues with this plan? Will I need to rig something to keep the dowel or CO2 cartridge pressed down while it dries?

Really interesting and bold. I like it! Like Edison was fond of saying, "...you've got to make the damned thing work." And you will. Kudos.

Look forward to the execution and later, the ride report!

I saw where someone had something he claimed was a Swift on Wilmington CL. Saw the pics and had to tell him it was a B17 standard that someone cut the whole sides off. I could only imagine how far he would have gotten before it ripped in half.

Thanks, but it's far from my own idea. If you google "butchered brooks saddle" you'll see a variety of similar approaches. My main variation, which I don't know if it's really feasible, is to try to create a bit of a midline depression in the middle of the saddle while it's wet.

Your plan to join the flaps on the underside will work, although you may want to consider the curvature lines to be more gradual. This is what mine ended up looking like after I replaced my Brooks leather. I did this a couple of years ago and it was quite tedious, but one hell of an awesome learning experience.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...fessional.html

Subscribed

If I was doing it I would immerse the whole saddle in the water for about an hour. Reason: if you only wet a portion of the leather you may finish with the leather being a different colour when it dries or the solubles in the leather forming a tide mark at the transition point.
Room temperature water is fine. Reason: I know of no advantage of warm water. Real disadvantage if the temp is over 70C as it changes the cell structures.
On LFGSS Skully used to do some work, and he used a bike chain link to hold the skirts together.
Sadly, over time the photo links are being lost. He also had some on a blog
It will be interesting to see if the impression created by the CO2 cartridge lasts with use.
Please take photos and keep the thread updated.
And use a very sharp blade to cut the leather.

You might get some gum tragacanth to burnish the cut edges.

I hadn't seen that thread. Very informative, thanks! I'm hoping that my process is much less tedious since I'm keeping the original leather. If the leather goes to pieces, I'm definitely done with it!

More great photos at those links, thanks! Too bad the first link is missing so many photos now. The chain link idea is sweet, though that might be adding a level of complexity I'll probably avoid (I only have one chain tool, and it's clunky). I'm not too worried about tide lines, since I'm going to get the entire saddle wet. Thanks for the tip about using room temp. water.

I'm also interested to see how the relief impression holds up with use. I suspect the saddle will want to straighten itself out from stretching. Would be a good experiment as an alternative to cutting a relief channel.

Nice job!

I agree with [MENTION=185335]Big Block[/MENTION] about water temperature.

And I'd probably soak the leather, or at least immerse it repeatedly; you will need a lot of water to soften it enough. If you want I can send you a pattern of what to cut.

That said, I don't think it's a good idea. You're basically trying to do two things; (1) forming a recess in the top is a variation on the"imperial" theme, and (2)cutting the sides and connecting remaining bit is the classic "swallow" treatment. I don't think you can imperialize it after you swallowize it, so if you want to do both, do the recess first.

To make the imperialesque recess, you will need pressure from both sides; the dowel you mention to press down, okay, but also a symmetrically placed pair underneath to support the edges. This is not going to be easy. The leather will have to become really really soft, and even so it will require a great deal of pressure. If the leather is at all compromised by age etc, it's going to tear.

If you can successfully imperialize your saddle, i suggest you let it dry and try riding it before attempting the next step. At least, that is how I would do it if i would do it; but honestly I wouldn't do it.

I saw the thread title and the initial post and was going to say "soak it".

I have an Imperial, and have found that (at least in my opinion), it is improved by adding elastic lacing. No need whatsoever to stitch the saddle together at the bottom. Instead, small perforations along the bottom of the side flaps and then lace with elastic cord and one of the little plastic push/slide devices like those that come on the waist or hood of garments designed to withstand weather.

Thanks, I was hoping you'd weigh in. Since I've ridden this saddle and found the bulging into my thigh much much more bothersome than the lack of a relief channel, I think I'll leave that part out. And yes, please, send me the pattern! I haven't started cutting yet.

If you look closely, you'll see this saddle has the perforations, and came with the flaps laced and pulled together. The problem is that the saddle has sagged/squashed, so pulling the flaps in is somewhat contributing to my problem. I suppose I could create new perforations, a little higher up, but I don't think that will do nearly as much as cutting away a fair amount of the sides.

I've now cut the saddle sides, using a "delux" snap-off utility knife. I'm glad I paid the $2 extra for the more comfortable handle. It took a lot of eyeballing and remeasuring to try to get the template I made with painter's tape symmetrical, and it helped to have a photo of a template of the pattern for a new, flat piece of leather from Rudi.





After I cut the sides, I used the Dremel to cut off the bag loops and trim the leather in the rear to be flush with the bottom of the Brooks plate. I know I'll never use that kind of saddle bag, and I like the idea of the saddle looking as svelte as possible. I also used the Dremel to clean up the cut edges a bit, but there's more of that to do later, especially around the flap that will be pulled under. I'll trim the ends of the flaps so they butt against each other after it's been soaked and shaped.






Rudi suggested I cut a groove on the inside of the leather, where the flaps will fold, and was kind enough to send me the tool to do it. Thank you [MENTION=73614]rhm[/MENTION]! I'll be sending it back shortly. It was a little tricky, but I put down more painter's tape to create a guide, and made the groove along the edge of the tape. This is a step that I don't think I've seen done in other Brooks B17-to-Swallow butchering guides, but it makes sense that it will help get a nice clean fold. I didn't want to groove too deeply - I aimed for about 1/3 of the way through, but it's probably ended up more like a 1/4 deep groove.



Next is the soaking and shaping and clamping the flaps underneath while they dry. I'm thinking before that I'll prime and paint the cut steel where I cut the bag tabs.

Very interesting!

Imperialize, imperialesque, the man can conjugate saddles with the best of 'em.

Appreciated this thread and thought I'd contribute my experience. Inspired by a vintage bike display at my LBS in Olympia, WA, I took X-acto knife in hand, to carve up a nicely broken-in B17 into a copy of the "Swallowesque" saddle seen on a French bike.

The saddle I copied was made without any stitched together leather flaps in the center tho, and I only became aware of them a few years later when I saw a real Swallow.

I expected mine to sag, since it was one of the basic Brooks, made of thinner leather that had broke in quickly. But after some 15 years, it hasn't. Maybe because I'm small and even in "fat old man" trim, only weight 150 pounds. Here are 2 pics taken in July this year. Don

Thanks for posting the photos and your experience. I'm very glad to read that your butcher job has held up so well for so long. I noticed some of the guides to doing this also don't bother with the flaps, and they also seem to not have sagging problems. Your 15-year followup, though, is the longest I've read, and very encouraging. Part of the reason I'm doing the flaps is also to try to make the saddle a bit more narrow in that middle section.

I'm struck also by how much you trimmed from the middle side section - there's barely any vertical side left in the middle. It looks great that way. Doing the flaps definitely adds a significant amount of time to this process. If this works well for me, and I want a butchered Brooks for a second bike, I may do the next one with a Brooks Pro the way you did - just chop the excess off.

Thanks. I do think rider weight plays a role, and middle support is probably best way to go. I sent a post into Brooks' web site years ago. It was up for a while, don't know if still there. Don

I checked out the Brooks website and did a search on "butchered Brooks" but got nada. Looks like our DIY approach to a Swallow will remain in the hands of those who can, and do! Don

I'm finally ready for a test ride! After detensioning the bolt, I soaked the saddle in room temp. water for about 20 hours. I wasn't sure how soft and floppy the leather should be, but figured that should be enough. The flaps were pretty flexible, but hardly floppy. I probably could have left it in the bucket for another night, but I wanted to get on with this. I'm glad I got the craving tool from Rudi and cut a groove where the flaps should fold - I think that definitely helped getting a fairly tight fold. Oh, and the water in the bucket came out the color of cola. A lot of dye came out, that's for sure

I folded the flaps under and clamped them loosely, then used rope to snug the sides together, and reclamped it tight. After about an hour I took the rope off, as the clamp was holding the shape well. I left it like that for a couple of days. I was in no hurry, since I had waited to order Proofide and wanted to apply that to the underside before I laced the flaps together.



After that arrived, I removed the clamps, trimmed the flaps, hit them with a dremel to smooth the edges a bit, and drilled 4 holes (without any attempt at making them perfectly symmetrical). Proofide was applied to both the underside, the top, and the edges. Then I put the zip ties in, feeding the long ends out the vent holes on top, which happily lined up rather well, and allowed me to easily pull the zip ties tight.

[/url]

I took the "after" photos without buffing the saddle. After buffing, it's still a little duller than it was, but also looks less worn (less contrast between shiny parts and weathered parts). The wetting/drying process clearly shrank the leather - there's a lot less sag lenght wise, and the right/left asymmetry is less pronounced.



It feels quite taut even without touching the adjustment bolt.




My goal, aside from making the saddle cooler looking, was to reduce the middle width section where it was jamming into my thighs. I used calipers to measure the width at each of the 3 vent holes, perpendicular to the long axis. Here are the widths before/after cutting and soaking/after tying the flaps (and final difference) in mm:

Front hole: 61.4/49.6/44.5 (-16.9mm)
Middle hole: 89.3/82.0/67.3 (-22.0mm)
Rear hole: 135.4/134.7/126.9 (-5.5mm)

I measured before lacing the flaps because I was curious how much effect that had on the final width, knowing that some people who do this don't bother with the flaps. It made the most difference in the middle section, as one would expect. And, for the weight weenies, it went from about 520 gm to 486 gm.

You wrote that the colour of the water was like cola. More like a cup of tea. You soaked tannins out of the leather.

In vegetable tanned leather, the hide is treated with vegetable tannins to stabilise the final product. The use of tannins and the similarity to the word tanning is no coincidence.
This process takes a considerable period of time to achieve.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tann...etable_tanning
I wrote earlier than one hour in the water was sufficient. One hour (or until the are no more bubbles rising) gets the leather pliable without excessive removal of the tannins.
Rudi may post a link to the articles I have sent him on this topic.
With the loss of the tannins, I am unsure how the leather will now react.

I have some more saddles to recover soon for my own use. One hour will be the immersion time for the leather.

thanks for the detailed posts, I've got a B17 that i was planning on chopping similarly so good to see some ideas!

Funny you should mention tea - I was having a tall glass of tea when I poured some of the post-soak bucket contents into another tall glass - it was darker, and distinctly black tinged, like flat cola. I was struck by how dark it was, almost like there were a few drops of india ink in the mix. I don't doubt that part of what came out were tannins, but I assume there was some black dye in there, too.

I initially soaked only the flaps, up to the groove that marked where the folding would happen, for about 2 hours. Then I tested, and I was surprised how stiff the flaps remained. I had read that the leather should be pliable, or bending would break the fibers, and these did not feel at all pliable to me. Perhaps my expectations were off, but the leather really didn't seem amenable to changing it's shape. That's when I put it in a small bucket, and left it for another 18 hours, while checking about every 4-8 hours. I did not see any little bubbles coming from the leather at any point in the process. By the way, if I repeat this process on a new saddle, that doesn't need to be entirely reblocked, I would only soak the flaps up the the fold point, and avoid this issue.

I read in an article on how Brooks makes their saddles that they have experts with 15-20 years of experience "reading" wet leather who decide how long an individual piece of leather is soaked in water before it can be shaped. Apparently there is considerable variation here, but the article didn't mention how great that variation may be.

This was an old, misshaped saddle. It is on one of the 3 bikes I regularly ride, and will see perhaps 500 miles/yr of use. I weight 150-155#, and ride on smooth pavement. There's the possibility that I've excessively weakened this saddle, and that it will soon fail, but this would surprise me. I've read of others who have soaked old Brooks saddles literally for days, and reblocked them, and used them for years, sometimes on mountain bikes, without apparent problems. I expect this saddle to be fine for years to come.

If I want to kill some time, I might take the pieces of leather I cut off before soaking and soak them for variable times, then fold them 90 degrees and let them dry, and see if I can tell any difference in stiffness, etc. I'll be interested in how your experiments go, though it sounds like you're doing something completely different (i.e., recovering saddle frames with new leather, vs. reblocking and trimming original leather while it remains mounted on the frame.)

The new leather I use is 7mm thick. The 'Professional' model leather is only 5mm.
Yet an hour is sufficient for my vacuum forming.

I doubt that Brooks would use a water soluble dye for a saddle. But I don't know.
If you look at the videos of the making of the saddles, there is no evidence of each cut being inspected midway through the immersion.
And with the massive presses they use, there is no need. More marketing spin.
Partial immersion will lead to a shore line, as I have written before. This is not normally sought after.
I have the advantage of working with new leather where the leather hasn't been filled with unknown treatments.