Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Advice on buying a Klein

Reply

Old 01-12-18, 06:02 PM
  #26  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
You can knock out the old spindle and bearings with a soft mallet and a dowel. Put the frame in your lap and start by hammering on the spindle end - this will likely drive out the opposite bearing.

If you want external they just press in with a headset press.

Your FD should work fine - nothing about the "package" is eccentric - it uses standard chainline. But before you change anything, measure the shell outer width and call Phil Wood to find out about their external bearing system.
Thanks. The OEM FD bolts directly into a hole on the frame. My triple FD is set "all the way in" and then a hair out to keep from touching the ST. It works, as the inner triple ring overlaps the BB shell by about 1/4".

I may check out external bearings. I like my crankset/BB performance, but I'm sure there's 400g in there I can save and go to a DA compact.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-18, 06:07 PM
  #27  
Kontact
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,991
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1768 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Thanks. The OEM FD bolts directly into a hole on the frame. My triple FD is set "all the way in" and then a hair out to keep from touching the ST. It works, as the inner triple ring overlaps the BB shell by about 1/4".

I may check out external bearings. I like my crankset/BB performance, but I'm sure there's 400g in there I can save and go to a DA compact.
Are you using a crank designed for your spindle length? I can't tell if you are talking all OEM or what has been changed.
Kontact is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-18, 08:41 PM
  #28  
shipwreck
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
shipwreck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Bike Rebel View Post
I came here looking for information on a bike I'm supposed to pick up this weekend if it checks out. Imagine my surprise when it turns out it is the very bike I'm supposed to pick up. I emailed the owner multiple times and had given up on getting a response. They finally responded and said it was mine if I wanted it. Then trying to set up a time was another adventure. I haven't got it yet and not confident that I will.
Yah, thats Arkansas. There are a few bikes that I have just given up on. Its a little harder for me, as I have to drive an hour or so to get there.

Congratulations on the bike, if it was in my size(58 to 60)I would have tried a little harder!
shipwreck is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-18, 08:04 AM
  #29  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Are you using a crank designed for your spindle length? I can't tell if you are talking all OEM or what has been changed.
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-14-18 at 08:08 AM.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-18, 12:15 PM
  #30  
masi61
Senior Member
 
masi61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,508

Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
I think he meant “27.4 seatposts”. I’ve never dealt directly with the old “Criterium Super” but remember reading the brochure on it back in the day and reading that they used 27.4 seatposts. The late 80’s Quantum discussed here should be a 27.2 seatpost.

Last edited by masi61; 01-14-18 at 12:23 PM.
masi61 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-18, 03:10 PM
  #31  
Kontact
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,991
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1768 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.
What "wouldn't work?" I asked whether the bike had a matching spindle and crank. Your reply makes it sound like I made a suggestion of some sort.
Kontact is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-18, 09:37 PM
  #32  
nesteel 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,428

Bikes: See the signature....

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.

Where are you finding the info that Klein spec'ed a Superbe Pro double crank? When I bought that bike, it had 6207 EX cranks, RD, and brakes. I would assume it used a Superbe FD because the Shimano units couldn't be adapted to the larger tube, or the through tube mounting.
But yes, finding a triple crankset that sits on a narrow BB spindle can be a pain. Not a situation that is very "vintage" friendly.
__________________
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770, '81 Merckx, '82 Nishiki International, '85 Centurion Cinelli, '85 Raleigh Portage, '92 RB-2, '09 Bianchi
nesteel is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-18, 08:13 AM
  #33  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I think he meant “27.4 seatposts”. I’ve never dealt directly with the old “Criterium Super” but remember reading the brochure on it back in the day and reading that they used 27.4 seatposts. The late 80’s Quantum discussed here should be a 27.2 seatpost.
My Klein uses a 25.4 seatpost. Not sure of the selection in 1984, but the DA was one of them. My incomplete inference was that Klein may have thought there'd be a plethora of 25.4 seat posts out there. 27.2 kind of became the standard. My fault for typing much less content than I was thinking...
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-18, 08:14 AM
  #34  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
What "wouldn't work?" I asked whether the bike had a matching spindle and crank. Your reply makes it sound like I made a suggestion of some sort.
My bad. I meant that "wouldn't work" for me. I wanted a triple, a compact, preferably, and I had no interest in removing the bb if it was like new and worked. I am certainly of the opinion that the crankset intended was a Superbe Pro, based on my trial and error.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-15-18 at 09:02 AM.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-18, 09:01 AM
  #35  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by nesteel View Post
Where are you finding the info that Klein spec'ed a Superbe Pro double crank? When I bought that bike, it had 6207 EX cranks, RD, and brakes. I would assume it used a Superbe FD because the Shimano units couldn't be adapted to the larger tube, or the through tube mounting.
But yes, finding a triple crankset that sits on a narrow BB spindle can be a pain. Not a situation that is very "vintage" friendly.
I couldn't find the OEM spec'd group, so I started with what I had: a Superbe Pro bolt-on FD that I'd not seen from any other brand, a symmetrical BB, and the shifter mount intended for a certain model of Suntour friction shifters. I tried 3 other sets of Suntour shifters that would not work on those mounts. After mounting a Superbe Pro crankset and looking at the chain line, which was consistent with the "tucked in" FD and testing the range with the L Suntour friction shifter, I assumed Superbe Pro was intended. It didn't make sense to have 52/42 and a short cage RD on a frame with double rear eyelets and front eyelets, but then, after mounting a Superbe Pro RD and getting a very smooth drive train, I assumed Superbe Pro was what they had in mind. It seemed very much like this setup was intended. Other cranksets sat too far out for the FD and the L shifter, I knew of no other bolt-on FD for this frame, and the odds, to me, of another group fitting up and working this well were too high to not consider Superbe Pro as the OEM group.

It did seem odd that a frame designed with double rear eyelets and single front, with plenty of clearance, would be spec'd for a more racing set of gears. It also seemed odd that Klein would spec a mix of Suntour and Shimano components. Everything about this frame said "special" and "proprietary" to me as I was trying to build it.

I simply don't have the legs to do semi-loaded touring with a 52/42 and a short range rear cassette, but once I assumed that setup was intended, it was simpler to search for components that would fit into that setup and still meet the capabilities I needed.

I adapted a hybrid Trek's triple 10-sp FD, identical to the DA 7700 triple but intended for a maximum 50T chain ring. It had to be shimmed to meet the tubing diameter, and the range adjusted from a hair away from the ST in the "inner" position, and nearly 100% "out" in the outer position.

I used, as outlined before, the only crankset I knew that was a compact triple and used a symmetrical BB. I'd remembered the RSX 3x7 compact triple group from a Diamondback Master TG I bought from a dealer, specifically to swap over to a Lemans RS touring build.

I adapted indexed shifters to work where none were intended, and even with the adaptation and the close-in FD/crankset, the range of the L shifter is used nearly completely up in hitting all 3 front chain rings. (Were the crankset to sit farther out, it would simply not work).

I'm not criticizing Klein, I'm just pointing out the challenges of imagining/guessing what was going on in 1984, and trying to make the vision created then into something workable for a compact triple touring bike with modern components in 2017. I also had a budget. I've since pulled the Tange steel front fork for a carbon Kestrel EMS Pro, which limits the front tire to 700x25, but makes it much easier to mount modern mid-range calipers. I'd love to find a 1" threaded carbon fork that accommodates a 700x28 tire, or even a 1" threadless carbon fork that accommodates a 700x28 tire. Of course, then I'd have to change the stem, and the bars, etc.... Until then, I'm going with what I have.

I didn't consider that writing about it would raise certain types of questions, but that seems to be more in the communication sphere than anything. I certainly wish this bunch would have been present in my garage when I showed them the frame and then said "I want to do ... with this bike." Probably would have saved myself a ton of time. At no point during the project did I consider giving up, which I've done with others (French). I just put it aside and waited for a different day. That's how nice that frame is.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-18, 12:33 PM
  #36  
masi61
Senior Member
 
masi61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,508

Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
My Klein uses a 25.4 seatpost. Not sure of the selection in 1984, but the DA was one of them. My incomplete inference was that Klein may have thought there'd be a plethora of 25.4 seat posts out there. 27.2 kind of became the standard. My fault for typing much less content than I was thinking...
Could you post a photo of your Klein showing the seatpost where we can see the measurement? I'm just curious which iteration of Klein you have.

Thanks if you can do it, from Bill in Dayton, Ohio.
masi61 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-18, 02:57 PM
  #37  
Dfrost 
Senior Member
 
Dfrost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,141

Bikes: ‘87 Marinoni SLX Sports Tourer, ‘79 Miyata 912 by Gugificazione

Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
When I ordered my 1992 Klein Performance from Chehalis through an LBS, Klein asked what crankset I planned to install (Ritchey Logic triple) and it arrived with the appropriate 118mm spindle installed. And it still uses a 27.2mm seatpost under my adult son now with an older Dura-Ace double crank on the same BB. But that’s me below, shortly after I first built it way back in my flexible days.

Dfrost is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-18, 04:26 PM
  #38  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Could you post a photo of your Klein showing the seatpost where we can see the measurement? I'm just curious which iteration of Klein you have.

Thanks if you can do it, from Bill in Dayton, Ohio.
Sure, I'll pull the post and show it. I got the frame from BF member nesteel, and had so much problem finding a seat post, he found the Dura Ace it had when he got it, and sent that.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-18, 04:30 PM
  #39  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Shifter mounts for indexed DA 9sp


Mounted shifter backing plates with "set" screw.


Shifters mounted. Since changed L shifter to the DA by swapping guts. A DA 9sp or 10sp L shifter has to be "rewound" 3/4 of a turn and that cannot be done on this bike. Swapped the RX100 guts out and put them into the DA 7700 L shifter.


Seat post. I'll pull it to get the size.
Yes, that's a custom saddle cover.
No, I'm not using 600AX calipers anymore. They don't seem to stop well.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-18, 05:14 PM
  #40  
masi61
Senior Member
 
masi61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,508

Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Shifter mounts for indexed DA 9sp


Mounted shifter backing plates with "set" screw.


Shifters mounted. Since changed L shifter to the DA by swapping guts. A DA 9sp or 10sp L shifter has to be "rewound" 3/4 of a turn and that cannot be done on this bike. Swapped the RX100 guts out and put them into the DA 7700 L shifter.


Seat post. I'll pull it to get the size.
Yes, that's a custom saddle cover.
No, I'm not using 600AX calipers anymore. They don't seem to stop well.
Thanks for posting. If I was going to guess I would say that Dura Ace seatpost will say “27.4” when you pull it (not 25.4 - that’s 1” which looks skinny in comparison).
masi61 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-18, 06:27 AM
  #41  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Thanks for posting. If I was going to guess I would say that Dura Ace seatpost will say “27.4” when you pull it (not 25.4 - that’s 1” which looks skinny in comparison).
You may be right. I may be crazy. We'll soon see. I have to pull it down from the wall rack and the carpet cleaner is in the way. That's how lazy I am.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-18, 07:17 AM
  #42  
masi61
Senior Member
 
masi61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,508

Bikes: Puch Marco Polo, Saint Tropez, Masi Gran Criterium

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
You may be right. I may be crazy. We'll soon see. I have to pull it down from the wall rack and the carpet cleaner is in the way. That's how lazy I am.
Your Klein looks really cool BTW. I love that color and your thanks for sharing your mod for making your downtube shifters 9 speed index compatible.
masi61 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-18, 05:53 PM
  #43  
RobbieTunes
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 22,645

Bikes: At Pedal Room under my handle here... '59 Raleigh Sports, '84 Klein Performance, '85 Raleigh Competition, '88 Ironman Master, '89 Centurion Carbon-R, 1999/00 Serotta Atlanta.

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
You're welcome. I have heard from nesteel, from whom I purchased this challenge, and he pretty much told me I am getting old and infirm; i.e. ...corpulence, flatulence, reticence, etc, ..and 27.4 it likely is.

I will still check. There were so many "instances" such as the seat post that I lost count. The frame was really cool to hang stuff on, but holy cow, it was eccentric.

I know the Tiagra calipers are not as big-kid cool as the 600AX, but they actually stop the bike, and since I'm considering a cross-US trip on it, I wanted pads I can replace from Walmart. I also needed the mid-range size, and the Tiagra fits the bill.

If I could get about 4mm more clearance on that carbon fork, I'd be able to run 28's. For now, 25's front/28's rear. I shook it down the other day, still getting used to the 46t spin rate, but with 95psi front, 105 psi rear, it soaked up the bumps that have me rattling around on my racing-type bikes.

It's one of those bikes that makes a couple others in your herd expendable should the need arise. I can't think of a better way to to put that.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-24-18 at 05:57 PM.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Terms of Service