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Old 01-12-18, 06:02 PM   #26
RobbieTunes
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
You can knock out the old spindle and bearings with a soft mallet and a dowel. Put the frame in your lap and start by hammering on the spindle end - this will likely drive out the opposite bearing.

If you want external they just press in with a headset press.

Your FD should work fine - nothing about the "package" is eccentric - it uses standard chainline. But before you change anything, measure the shell outer width and call Phil Wood to find out about their external bearing system.
Thanks. The OEM FD bolts directly into a hole on the frame. My triple FD is set "all the way in" and then a hair out to keep from touching the ST. It works, as the inner triple ring overlaps the BB shell by about 1/4".

I may check out external bearings. I like my crankset/BB performance, but I'm sure there's 400g in there I can save and go to a DA compact.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Thanks. The OEM FD bolts directly into a hole on the frame. My triple FD is set "all the way in" and then a hair out to keep from touching the ST. It works, as the inner triple ring overlaps the BB shell by about 1/4".

I may check out external bearings. I like my crankset/BB performance, but I'm sure there's 400g in there I can save and go to a DA compact.
Are you using a crank designed for your spindle length? I can't tell if you are talking all OEM or what has been changed.
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Old 01-13-18, 08:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bike Rebel View Post
I came here looking for information on a bike I'm supposed to pick up this weekend if it checks out. Imagine my surprise when it turns out it is the very bike I'm supposed to pick up. I emailed the owner multiple times and had given up on getting a response. They finally responded and said it was mine if I wanted it. Then trying to set up a time was another adventure. I haven't got it yet and not confident that I will.
Yah, thats Arkansas. There are a few bikes that I have just given up on. Its a little harder for me, as I have to drive an hour or so to get there.

Congratulations on the bike, if it was in my size(58 to 60)I would have tried a little harder!
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Old 01-14-18, 08:04 AM   #29
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Are you using a crank designed for your spindle length? I can't tell if you are talking all OEM or what has been changed.
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.

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Old 01-14-18, 12:15 PM   #30
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I think he meant “27.4 seatposts”. I’ve never dealt directly with the old “Criterium Super” but remember reading the brochure on it back in the day and reading that they used 27.4 seatposts. The late 80’s Quantum discussed here should be a 27.2 seatpost.

Last edited by masi61; 01-14-18 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-14-18, 03:10 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.
What "wouldn't work?" I asked whether the bike had a matching spindle and crank. Your reply makes it sound like I made a suggestion of some sort.
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Old 01-14-18, 09:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
That would not work, given that Klein spec'd a Superbe Pro double on a symmetrical BB for a touring rig. There are triple square taper cranksets out there, but all I tried ended way too wide. I wanted a compact triple, and the RSX is that, and uses a symmetrical BB. Also, the direct bolt FD spec'd by Klein had the chainline in tight to the frame. The inner ring overlaps, and it gets in tight enough that the L shifter can reach all three rings. It did not have enough range on a "standard" triple that sat too far out. If parts of my inner chainring had rubbed, I'd have found a different one or ground off the offending metal.

Adapting modern-ish components to this frame was twice as hard as setting up an even older frame to Ergo.

It's a wonderful frame and takes a while just to take in the idiosyncrasies, rides amazingly well and is super light for a tourer. Klein just looked down the road and made assumptions, perhaps, that did not hold up, for that time, even though "correct" in many ways:

Press-fit BBs
Thru-frame shifter cables
OS tubing

And some that didn't:

Direct- bolt FDs
Piggyback "aero" DT shifting
25.4 seat posts

I learned a ton on this one, and have built other Kleins, and would again; but 'twill be with a touch of chagrin and a wry approach to Klein's innovative mastery.

I managed to integrate my wants and needs with what Klein thought I'd want and need. How, even now, I have no idea. Luck, I think.

Where are you finding the info that Klein spec'ed a Superbe Pro double crank? When I bought that bike, it had 6207 EX cranks, RD, and brakes. I would assume it used a Superbe FD because the Shimano units couldn't be adapted to the larger tube, or the through tube mounting.
But yes, finding a triple crankset that sits on a narrow BB spindle can be a pain. Not a situation that is very "vintage" friendly.
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Old 01-15-18, 08:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I think he meant “27.4 seatposts”. I’ve never dealt directly with the old “Criterium Super” but remember reading the brochure on it back in the day and reading that they used 27.4 seatposts. The late 80’s Quantum discussed here should be a 27.2 seatpost.
My Klein uses a 25.4 seatpost. Not sure of the selection in 1984, but the DA was one of them. My incomplete inference was that Klein may have thought there'd be a plethora of 25.4 seat posts out there. 27.2 kind of became the standard. My fault for typing much less content than I was thinking...
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Old 01-15-18, 08:14 AM   #34
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What "wouldn't work?" I asked whether the bike had a matching spindle and crank. Your reply makes it sound like I made a suggestion of some sort.
My bad. I meant that "wouldn't work" for me. I wanted a triple, a compact, preferably, and I had no interest in removing the bb if it was like new and worked. I am certainly of the opinion that the crankset intended was a Superbe Pro, based on my trial and error.

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Old 01-15-18, 09:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by nesteel View Post
Where are you finding the info that Klein spec'ed a Superbe Pro double crank? When I bought that bike, it had 6207 EX cranks, RD, and brakes. I would assume it used a Superbe FD because the Shimano units couldn't be adapted to the larger tube, or the through tube mounting.
But yes, finding a triple crankset that sits on a narrow BB spindle can be a pain. Not a situation that is very "vintage" friendly.
I couldn't find the OEM spec'd group, so I started with what I had: a Superbe Pro bolt-on FD that I'd not seen from any other brand, a symmetrical BB, and the shifter mount intended for a certain model of Suntour friction shifters. I tried 3 other sets of Suntour shifters that would not work on those mounts. After mounting a Superbe Pro crankset and looking at the chain line, which was consistent with the "tucked in" FD and testing the range with the L Suntour friction shifter, I assumed Superbe Pro was intended. It didn't make sense to have 52/42 and a short cage RD on a frame with double rear eyelets and front eyelets, but then, after mounting a Superbe Pro RD and getting a very smooth drive train, I assumed Superbe Pro was what they had in mind. It seemed very much like this setup was intended. Other cranksets sat too far out for the FD and the L shifter, I knew of no other bolt-on FD for this frame, and the odds, to me, of another group fitting up and working this well were too high to not consider Superbe Pro as the OEM group.

It did seem odd that a frame designed with double rear eyelets and single front, with plenty of clearance, would be spec'd for a more racing set of gears. It also seemed odd that Klein would spec a mix of Suntour and Shimano components. Everything about this frame said "special" and "proprietary" to me as I was trying to build it.

I simply don't have the legs to do semi-loaded touring with a 52/42 and a short range rear cassette, but once I assumed that setup was intended, it was simpler to search for components that would fit into that setup and still meet the capabilities I needed.

I adapted a hybrid Trek's triple 10-sp FD, identical to the DA 7700 triple but intended for a maximum 50T chain ring. It had to be shimmed to meet the tubing diameter, and the range adjusted from a hair away from the ST in the "inner" position, and nearly 100% "out" in the outer position.

I used, as outlined before, the only crankset I knew that was a compact triple and used a symmetrical BB. I'd remembered the RSX 3x7 compact triple group from a Diamondback Master TG I bought from a dealer, specifically to swap over to a Lemans RS touring build.

I adapted indexed shifters to work where none were intended, and even with the adaptation and the close-in FD/crankset, the range of the L shifter is used nearly completely up in hitting all 3 front chain rings. (Were the crankset to sit farther out, it would simply not work).

I'm not criticizing Klein, I'm just pointing out the challenges of imagining/guessing what was going on in 1984, and trying to make the vision created then into something workable for a compact triple touring bike with modern components in 2017. I also had a budget. I've since pulled the Tange steel front fork for a carbon Kestrel EMS Pro, which limits the front tire to 700x25, but makes it much easier to mount modern mid-range calipers. I'd love to find a 1" threaded carbon fork that accommodates a 700x28 tire, or even a 1" threadless carbon fork that accommodates a 700x28 tire. Of course, then I'd have to change the stem, and the bars, etc.... Until then, I'm going with what I have.

I didn't consider that writing about it would raise certain types of questions, but that seems to be more in the communication sphere than anything. I certainly wish this bunch would have been present in my garage when I showed them the frame and then said "I want to do ... with this bike." Probably would have saved myself a ton of time. At no point during the project did I consider giving up, which I've done with others (French). I just put it aside and waited for a different day. That's how nice that frame is.
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