Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Gitane TdF Frame is lopsided

Search
Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Gitane TdF Frame is lopsided

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 03-27-18 | 11:43 AM
  #26  
cdmurphy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 550
Likes: 20
From: San Marcos, CA

Bikes: Too many, but sometimes not enough.

Originally Posted by jonwvara
Yes, that's the case.

Also, the problem, such as it is, is not as bad as I had thought. It turns out that the dish in the wheel was off significantly--about a 3mm gap on one side of the dishing gauge. I was sure I remembered checking the dish when I trued the wheel a couple of years back, but not so. That is probably a function of my gradually improving memory. When I was younger, I could only remember things that had actually happened, but now I can even remember some things that didn't happen. Soon I will remember things that couldn't have happened--hunting elephants with Teddy Roosevelt out in our back field and things like that.

Anyway, once I tweaked the wheel and adjusted the dropout adjusters, about half of the disparity went away. Original spacing was about 20mm to the seatstay on one side and 30 on the other. Now it's 22.5 on one side and 26.5 on the other (I know those don't add upper perfectly--there's a stray millimeter in there somewhere.) That's still visible but a lot less bothersome.

I'm a little embarrassed to have to explain this after being so sure that wheel dish wasn't a factor. But a little embarrassment has its place from time to time. It keeps us humble.
This may not be entirely your fault. I've had rear wheels that I've built up seeminly de-dish themselves by a few mm after their first ride or two. I suspect I hadn't fully bedded the drive side spokes as I was tensioning / stress relieving the wheels. After a ride or two, the spoke heads bedded in a bit better, and effectively reduced their tension, allowing the wheel to move back over a bit.

Regarding your alignment problem, it's actually pretty common for the dropouts to be at slightly different heights. No problem centering a perfectly dished wheel between the chainstays, but the top will be off at the brake bridge. It's the one aspect of frame alignment that can't be fixed after the fact on an alignment table. (If the chainstays are slightly different lengths, you would never know it on a horizontal dropout.) That's one of the reasons no one really used vertical dropouts until the 80s. Production (and even most custom) frame building and alignment just wasn't precise enough to guarantee you wouldn't have the wheel way out of whack. It wasn't until the Japanese got their act together, and pressured everyone else to up their game that you would see vertical dropouts on production frames.

On one or two bikes that I cared about, I've actually gone through the trouble of heating the dropout / seatstay junction on the higher side to reflow the brass, and then tweaked the dropout back to where it should be. I would only consider this on a frame destined for re-paint, and I wouldn't try it on a chromed dropout / seatstay.

One last point -- you might want to consider re-dishing your wheel back to where it was. All that the bike cares about for purposes of riding no-hands is that your center of gravity is right in line with the contact patch of the front and rear wheels. With your wheel slightly off in the frame, a perfectly dished wheel will in effect put the tire in the same spot as a frame with a crooked rear triangle. You might find it doesn't ride no-hands quite as well now that you've "fixed" the wheel. Really, the point of a perfectly dished wheel is so that you can interchange it with any other, on a perfectly aligned frame. If the frame is off in ways you can't fix, you have to choose between easily interchangeable wheels, or a functionally mis-aligned frame. (It might not be enough to matter, but keep in mind that the goal is getting your body right between the wheels, not necessarily in having every component perfectly centered and aligned.)
cdmurphy is offline  
Reply
Old 03-27-18 | 03:35 PM
  #27  
gugie's Avatar
Bike Butcher of Portland
Titanium Club Membership
10 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 12,444
Likes: 7,978
From: Portland, OR

Bikes: It's complicated.

Originally Posted by cdmurphy
On one or two bikes that I cared about, I've actually gone through the trouble of heating the dropout / seatstay junction on the higher side to reflow the brass, and then tweaked the dropout back to where it should be. I would only consider this on a frame destined for re-paint, and I wouldn't try it on a chromed dropout / seatstay.
I've done the same.

Originally Posted by cdmurphy
One last point -- you might want to consider re-dishing your wheel back to where it was. All that the bike cares about for purposes of riding no-hands is that your center of gravity is right in line with the contact patch of the front and rear wheels. With your wheel slightly off in the frame, a perfectly dished wheel will in effect put the tire in the same spot as a frame with a crooked rear triangle. You might find it doesn't ride no-hands quite as well now that you've "fixed" the wheel. Really, the point of a perfectly dished wheel is so that you can interchange it with any other, on a perfectly aligned frame. If the frame is off in ways you can't fix, you have to choose between easily interchangeable wheels, or a functionally mis-aligned frame. (It might not be enough to matter, but keep in mind that the goal is getting your body right between the wheels, not necessarily in having every component perfectly centered and aligned.)
Sometimes I think we're twin brothers of different mothers. I've often thought that you could intentionally offset a frame's rear triangle and reduce dish for a stronger wheel. You'd have to accomodate chain line, and make sure the crank arm doesn't hit, but it would be an interesting design proposition.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Reply
Old 03-27-18 | 03:47 PM
  #28  
cdmurphy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 550
Likes: 20
From: San Marcos, CA

Bikes: Too many, but sometimes not enough.

Originally Posted by gugie
Sometimes I think we're twin brothers of different mothers. I've often thought that you could intentionally offset a frame's rear triangle and reduce dish for a stronger wheel. You'd have to accomodate chain line, and make sure the crank arm doesn't hit, but it would be an interesting design proposition.
Thanks Gugie, that's high praise coming from you. I like to think it comes from a unique combination of having a machine / fabrication shop, and a border-line pathological desire to "make it right". Sometimes it's even a good thing :-)
cdmurphy is offline  
Reply
Old 03-27-18 | 03:58 PM
  #29  
gugie's Avatar
Bike Butcher of Portland
Titanium Club Membership
10 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 12,444
Likes: 7,978
From: Portland, OR

Bikes: It's complicated.

Originally Posted by cdmurphy
Thanks Gugie, that's high praise coming from you. I like to think it comes from a unique combination of having a machine / fabrication shop, and a border-line pathological desire to "make it right". Sometimes it's even a good thing :-)
Kind works, thanks! It'll be great to meet you at Eroica, we can talk about some potential projects we can work on together.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Scratcher33
Bicycle Mechanics
8
09-06-18 12:27 PM
itpesaf
Classic & Vintage
17
05-02-17 08:42 PM
auxym
Classic & Vintage
10
06-22-14 02:35 PM
druptight
Framebuilders
7
04-05-12 09:18 PM
inkandsilver
Bicycle Mechanics
5
02-21-11 10:04 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.