As the title says,

Just picked up this Frenchie for a winter project and wondering about the date.

I have read that serials are not reliable but in any case it has 113 964 on the rear dropout and 61 on the base of the headtube.

It's consistent with the 70-74 catalog for the Gran Sport ie. Pivo stem, Durax cranks, Simplex derailer, Normandy hubs, Rigida rims etc...

I've also heard people look to decal design etc... from catalogues.

Anyone know a year for it?

The plan is to keep the stock look and patina but m a y b e mess with the drive train. It has those nice full aluminum fenders and older vibe that may lean towards a francais clubman look but without a 2x5 derailer system.

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Final year for foil transfers was 1973.

This model of Simplex Prestige rear derailleur was last produced in 1969.

The white Delrin shift levers are another dating aid which moves the machine into the 1960's as well.

Guessing perhaps somewhere near to 1968-69.

The 61 marking you found on the bicycle's BOCAMA head lug refers to the angle in degrees between the lug's sockets for the headtube and downtube.

Some Simplex rear derailleurs bear a date mark on the back side -



The bicycle's wheel rims are likely Rigida SUPERCHROMIX. These have a diamond symbol next to the name.

There is sometimes a date inside the diamond:




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Wow! Thank you. I'll give some of those clues a look see in the next day or so

Well, the rear derailer has a 1 / 69 stamp but the steel rims only say "made in France" and have no hatched texture on the side. Just convex chrome. Also Schwinn gum rubber tires instead of Michelin but they look original or close to it.

Listed in the 1970 catalog for $94.50

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Great to read you have matters now well sorted.

Sounds like machine produced in 1969 as a 1970 model year product.

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Fittings -

pedals - Lyotard model Nr. 36

cranks - DURAX

chainwheels - Cyclo

bottom bracket fittings - REWAX MD

hubs - Normandy Sport hollow axle 36 hole w/M.M. Atom quick release

rear mech - Juy (Simplex) model 637

shift levers - Juy (Simplex) "3rd type"
VeloBase.com - Component: Simplex Prestige (3rd type, stem mount)
(cycle's earliest component)

headset - REWAX

gear block - Atom

drive chain - SEDIS

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Frame -

lug pattern - BOCAMA Nr. 68-I

crown - Vagner Nr. PL with NERVEX cap Ref. 2590

shell - Gargatte

ends - likely NERVEX but not shown well enough to confirm

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non-original bits -

saddle

mudguards

front mech

handlebar wrap

tyres

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Safety tip -

stem is mounted too high

there needs to be at least ~60mm inserted into steerer for safety

please lower before riding

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[MENTION=333224]juvela[/MENTION] [MENTION=421554]Happy Feet[/MENTION]

My guess is that this bike is an early 1968 Gitane Grand Sport Deluxe. I'm going by the decals and the white plastic shift levers plus the cranks. You can't rely on the date code on the back of the Simplex RD cage because they frequently got sucked into the spokes and needed to be replaced.

I've never seen this style of Gitane seat tube sticker before.



While Gitane started using DuPont Mylar® Polyester Film Foil stickers around 1967, the classic "Foil Era" began in 1968 and continued until the end of 1973.

The red stickers on the lower priced models looked like this:




They used blue stickers with some frame colors. (results varied depending on vin rouge ou blanc pour le déjeuner et combien a été consommé)



The performance/racing models had silver seat tube stickers with a "SERVICE COURSE" sticker on the top tube.




BTW, Check the frame alignment....

Hope this helps...

Mssr. verktyg

juvela and verktyg, you guys are awesome!

I'll check the stem but admit I took it out for a 35km ride today to see how it ran and decide on a gear combination I like. The chain line is terrible with lots of front rubbing and skipping under pressure in both low and high chain rings. It only confirms my desire to make it a single speed. The goal will be a stock club style SS bike, keeping the fenders and adding period wire bottle cages, pump and saddle bag. I have a great area for Sunday rides that I like to get the wool jersey and knickers out for once in a while

Now another question if possible.

The chain rings are 52 / 30-something that are riveted together. If I don't want to destroy it (I like to keep parts I take off in case someone else wants to restore it later on) I'll have to swap it out for a period correct (in appearance) replacement. However, That big chain ring (also the one connected to the crank) is too big!

I have read that persnickety French axles won't take English cottered cranks. Is it so in this case and, if so, are there any easily sourced standard cranks that will fit? Something in the 35T or so range.

Ps. The ride was great. The bars are the narrowest I've used yet but oddly comfortable. They just need some better tape than the hockey style currently on them. Fortunately I am well stocked in French Shellac.

THE STEM IS DANGEROUSLY TOO HIGH!

Sheldon Brown forever damned AVA brand stems as Death Stems! I've never seen an AVA stem fail but the sand cast PIVO brand stems are/were the real death stems, especially the ones produced during the early 70's Bike Boom.

The stem on your bike is probably old enough that it's better quality but before I ever got back on that bike I'd pull the stem, also the fork and carefully inspect both for cracks.

Stems should be inserted at least 75mm-80mm (3") into the steerer so the expander is below the threads on the steerer!

Here's an example of an extremely poor quality Bike Boom era PIVO stem. Note the flaws in the quill - it's supposed to be 21.9mm diameter but measures ~20.0mm in the mid section.

More importantly, note the crack at the top of the expander slot!



This is what happens when the crack spreads. You are left hold the detached bars! It happened to me!



When the stem is tightened with the expander section in the threaded area of the steerer, it can also cause a crack in the threads. The sharp V shape threads are perfect for creating stress risers.

French style steerer with a flat in the treads for the lock washer.



British/Italian style steerer with a slot milled in for the lock washer.



Back in the early 70's I had 2 stems fail while road testing customer's bikes plus the top of a steerer break off. I was EXTREMELY lucky in that I was able to safely bring those bikes to a stop.

So unless you like to meet new people like orthodontists, plastic surgeons, neurosurgeons, etc. I suggest that you take my recommendations seriously rather than being concerned about the looks and gears of the bike!!!

One other suggestion, file, drill or grind a small round area at the top of the expander split in the stem to prevent stress riser cracks from forming. I do that to ALL of my stems that don't already have them.



REPEAT - The stem should be inserted 75mm-80mm (~3") into the steerer to get below the threaded section.

Also, your bars are probably 36cm or 38cm as was the fashion back then.


Figure on bikes like this as having 8 usable chainring/FW combinations. The cage on the Simplex FD can be bent a little and properly aligned with the chainring but... those old Simplex Delrin derailleurs are far more than prone to breaking.

The chainrings are probably 52/36T. Those crank arms most certainly have a 50.4mm BCD (Bolt Circle Diameter) which was an industry standard for decades. TA Pro 5 Vis (Cyclotourist) and Stronglight 49 chainrings will fit but you may have to play around with the mounting bolts.

TA "Outer" chainrings are available in 40T from Peter White Cycles:

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ta-chainrings.php

This BF thread discusses TA Pro 5 Vis (Cyclotourist) in depth.

Specialties T.A. Cyclotouriste (a.k.a. Pro 5 Vis) History/Info

If you want to forsake a period correct look, VeloORANGE sells square taper sealed bearing BBs. That allows you a wide selection of cranks to choose from (and don't believe all the bull pucky about ISO, JIS and other spindle tapers - if it fits, it works)

Here's a Flickr album I put together in a hurry back in 2011. Read my descriptions under the photos. I should update it - someday.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57627678462359

I personally would be far more concerned about the stem than the looks... we don't like to loose members on BF!

verktyg

Well, once again you two are on the money. Just pulled the stem and it was only about 2 inches in the head tube, if that. I examined the slot closely - all good there - and measured three inches marked with tape and reinserted. My dental work thanks you




While I was at it I couldn't resist working on a set of bars I've had kicking around waiting for just such a purpose. Through a secret, patented process I put a slight flare in them, like very mild dirt drops. Not enough to be way out of line with the times but just a little touch that makes you go hum...




And the gypsy woman out on the road before being told to tuck her neck in before it gets chopped off.

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[MENTION=179053]ver[/MENTION]ktyg -

Chas.

Thank you so much for all of this great information!

Greatly appreciated here.

There are two items on the bicycle which make me wonder time-wise.

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First is the wheels; they appear too new for a ~fifty year old cycle.

Both Normandy Sport hubs have oval flange holes which I recall as coming in about 1969.

Would have guessed a 1968 cycle to be fitted with ones showing the round holes.

The wheel rims have smooth braking surfaces which is unusual for a french machine of this era.

It seems like nearly all manufacturers selected serrated braking surfaces whether they chose SAMIR SAMINOX or Rigida SUPERCHROMIX for steel rims.

These two features make me suspect wheels may be replacements; your thoughts?

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Second puzzle to me is the white Delrin shift levers.

I recall them as already discontinued by 1968 and thought that MICMO must have been using up old stock.

Were they still in production at this time?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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[MENTION=5438]Happy[/MENTION]_Feet -

Hope the new bar you have fitted has a 25.0mm centre as that is the size of the clamp on the cycle's PIVO handlebar stem.

If it happens to be a 25.4mm size you would have had to prise open the stem's clamp, creating yet another stem failure risk.

We're just rooting for you to keep the shiny side up.


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I hope so, or back in the bin it goes. I was looking for an excuse to put the bend in them anyway so time well wasted.

The oval flange thing piqued my interest so I went down to look at my 1970 Raleigh Grand Prix and it has the exact same hubs! But the rims are again straight chrome with no serrations. I don't know what that means for dating but its interesting that competing entry level bikes, both English and French, had the same hubs.

Normandy Sport large flange hubs had round holes until ~1965-66. The early versions didn't have removable dust shields.




Later ones had these removable dust shields .



Around 1966 Normandy Sport hubs switched from round to "kidney bean" shaped holes.




BITD, we considered ALL steel rims JUNK! It wasn't worth replacing one of those rims because we could sell the customer a new wheel for less money and a new wheel with an alloy rim for just a few dollars more!

In fact ~1976-78 we were buying complete 700c wheels with Super Champion Mod 58 rims or the Milremo branded ones with stainless spokes and QR Atom small flange hubs for $6.00 each!

We had Bertin fill up the extra space in the containers that they shipped bikes to us in with wheels so our shipping costs were nil!

Steel rims bent so easily that on most bikes that were ridden regularly BITD both wheels had usually been replaced.

Also the cheap spokes used on many wheels during the bike boom frequently broke while truing those wheels or on the first ride afterwards. Stomp on the pedals and: PING, PING, PING!

As I mentioned above, steel rims were such garbage that I rarely paid much attention to them but I do recall some with smooth sides on older French bikes. Also Japanese bikes usually had smooth sided rims, maybe Brit and Italian too.

All the patterns in the rim braking areas did was collect water to lubricate the brake pads in wet weather!!!

European bike manufacturers didn't usually practice FIFO (First In - First Out) inventory management, especially during the bike boom era. Old stock was frequently used on later model bikes.

The French were very frugal - a centime saved was a croissant earned!



Those Delrin plastic levers were so fragile that they were frequently replaced so maybe they are old stock levers that some bike shop used???


NON! NON! NON! DON'T EVEN THINK OF SPREADING THE CLAMP ON ONE OF THOSE CHEAP SAND CAST PIVO STEMS!

This happened to me with a forge aluminum Cinelli stem that had been used on an undersized bar for almost 35 years. We were young and dumb back then and there was no one around to teach us any better - everything was trial and error!

When I went to spread the clamp, there was a musical ping as the front flew across my work bench!




DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS!

verktyg

My apologies, I'm a newbie here and figuring out posting has been interesting. I'm also trying to avoid zombie threads, the last post was less than a year ago so I hope I'm good. Question is for Chas, somebody I followed for years over on GitaneUSA and know well of his expertise. Chas, how are you fixing the start of Gitane's foil era at 1968? I know that there are grey areas, like when older stock was updated with newer decals but I'm trying to date a European-market Gitane Champion du Monde that has "100" designation (pre-1968) as well as some foil era decals.. The frame appears to be pre-bike-boom, Nervex Pro lugs; Campy dropouts, finished seat stay caps (pre-Carre-style ); 3 tubes/fork 531, and no chrome socks. It may have been a curated specimen that got later decals but I've seen other Gitanes with early features that also have some combo of the foil decal set. As I'm an archaeologist assigning dates becomes a terrible, sometimes unachievable, obsession. Anyway, can you give me some insight? I live in Marin and would happily show you the frame sometime. Best., Mark...I'll post pic...but the forum is telling me this message is over 70,000 characters, like I said, posting here as been interesting.

yes you can date Gitanes by the decals and the ones I thought were most attractive
were the shortest lived (of course) the late 70s ones. Loved the aquamarine decal
on a white frame and the yellow on blue had that certain something

Thanks Steve, yes I know Gitanes can be dated by decals, I'm trying to get a bit more info on the start of the "foil era" bikes as Chas has determined. The ones you think are so attractive from later 70s use all lower case "gitane" font, some have the honeycomb rear dropouts too, pretty cool stuff. I like those too but I'm more partial to the later 60s/early 70s all caps font GITANE over world champion stripes (foil era) as well as the all caps GITANE yellow "bubble font" on French blue from the 1980s (late Renault Elf, early Systeme U). Both my wife and I have 1987 Team Pros, 531c, number fob, internal cables run in from bottom of top tube. I bought her's in late 1980s, brand new and built up w/ mostly French components. I've loved that bike for decades and I finally found an 87 Pro frame for myself...going to build it up w/ first gen Campy Chorus.

woops...a bit of an error in my previous post...the foil era is not ALL caps, just the "G" … "Gitane" … brain fade!!!

our shop was a Gitane dealer from the early to mid 70s
we were told that their honeycomb dropout was made for them
by Huret. your team frame would make a good candidate for a
best of French build: TA Tevano crank,Rodger Piel pedals
Jubile derailleurs.Mafac sidepull brakes. Frenchiness is coolness

...not sure if your response was to me Steve...my Gitane is pre-honeycomb era, I have Campy dropouts front and rear. My plan is to match fairly closely the 65-67 Champion du Monde models which had a mix of French and Italian components. It has the short stack height so Stronglight headset...I have several around for that. I also have a Stronglight 63 crankset and a Campy Record rear derailleur too (the original, pre-Nuovo Record steel and bronze version) as well as Mafac Dural Forge brakes (all items on the Champion du Monde). Still waiting for Chas on the initiation of the foil era. Chas, are you placing start of foil era at 1968 based on the 1967 Gitane catalogue on GitaneUSA website? Thanks, really would like to hear from you. Mark

...still fishing for Chas to weigh in...need my 10 posts so I can post pix too. Chas, is your dating start of foil era at 1968 based on catalogue data or something else? This date has been bandied about here and on GitaneUSA and I'm just trying to determine how this date was determined. You are the gura, love your attention to details and pragmatic approach to things. Thanks in advance for any response. Mark

OK, enough posts now to post pix w/o playing games. Here is my European Market Gitane 100. Nervex Pro lugs, Campy dropouts, capped seat stay ends (but not Carre-style), 531, short-head stack, NO chrome socks, and foil-era decals. Trying to date frame, Chas has Gitane foil era starting in 1968 but this frame appears earlier. Could be curated frame, updated with later decals or perhaps foil-era started a year or two earlier. Chas how did you fix date at 1968? Thanks in advance, hope you are well. Mark