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Vintage shifting new wheels

Old 06-27-20, 11:57 AM
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Vintage shifting new wheels

I posted something like this in mechanics but figure some people here know the answer and donít read that section.

I understand lots of people want to keep a vintage bike stock. But letís say someone had a Ď73 World Voyageur and wanted to use a modern set of wheels they already own from a ten speed carbon road bike. The goal is to get better wheels and more tire and gearing options. I think the original is 14-32 five speed. The frame would be sent to a frame shop to be widened to 130mm with new brake post.

Would an 8 speed 11-34 cassette work with the vintage bar end friction shifters and Crane GS long cage derailleur?
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Old 06-27-20, 12:12 PM
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Probably not.
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Old 06-27-20, 12:25 PM
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Instead of using a massive cassette, just use a triple. Something like 50/40/28 with a 12-27 cassette. If you're so strong that you can spin out a 50/12 gear then just do the classic 52/42/30.

I think a suntour vgt could reach 8 gears. When I tried it barely couldn't, but I was using a derailleur claw which pushed the derailleur outboard a few millimeters.
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Old 06-27-20, 12:34 PM
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I would say there's a good chance that it would be fine. The rear shifter will almost certainly move a lot further than it does now, maybe even 180į. I'm shifting a 10sp cassette with some vintage Campy levers.
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Old 06-27-20, 12:36 PM
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I would say...maybe. And add an ‘It depends’.

First issue is whether the bar end shifters will move that Crane GS across a full width cassette. Friction bar end shifters -like their downtube bretheren- are uncommonly versatile but they are limited by how much cable they will pull from one end point to the other. At a minimum, expect to have to use every mm of bar end lever travel in order to get from lowest to highest gear. If you’re already using most of the bar end travel to shift that 120mm spaced five speed, then you might be better off with later 8 or 9 speed Shimano Dura Ace bar ends that can be run in friction mode and can easily pull across and entire full sized cassette. Another piece of this same puzzle is cable pull for the Crane. Pretty sure it’s the same pull as DA first gen and you should be fine. If not, then...not.

Second issue is going from a 32 to a 34 big cog. Not a huge change, but the Crane doesn’t have a B screw so you’re limited to using chain length and axle placement in the dropout to clear the big cog while in the small ring. Assuming you have long-ish horizontal dropouts that are not already pulled all the way to the back, and a willingness to perhaps live with a chain length that makes the big/big combo too tight, this can probably be tinkered with satisfactorily. Not a fan of the tight big/big thing, though. Too easy to shift into that big cog by mistake and destroy that lovely Crane.

Like I said, it depends.
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Old 06-27-20, 01:09 PM
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Seconding everything rccardr said above...^^^

With modern chain, the variable chain gap that you are going to be dealing with is not going to help this work "well".
Modern chain is sooo much more sideways-flexible than the vintage chain that the Crane was designed for.

In the end, getting this to work might come down to the marginal gains of much tinkering. Things like great cabling and fine-tuning of the chain-length and axle position can make significant improvements on many vintage setups involving very-wide gearing strategies.
For example, on a couple of recent vintage builds, I added some plastic noodle material at the metal cable guide above the bb. I then cemented it in place with enough glue to retain the short noodle in a fixed position. This had an out-sized effect on shifting feel, helping to get rid of the "elastic cable" sort of feel while shifting.
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Old 06-27-20, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
For example, on a couple of recent vintage builds, I added some plastic noodle material at the metal cable guide above the bb. I then cemented it in place with enough glue to retain the short noodle in a fixed position. This had an out-sized effect on shifting feel, helping to get rid of the "elastic cable" sort of feel while shifting.
Huh? I don't understand why "plastic noodle" would result in "less elastic". If by that, you mean that you used teflon tubing to reduce friction at the cable guide, then say no more -- maybe that's it.

I've been refurbishing a mid-late-90s Specialized Hard Rock lately and, despite being very practical in most respects, it had a rather stupid design for the routing of the rear brake cable -- the brake housing from the handlebar lever stopped at a braze-on just behind the headset, with a long length of teflon tube extending from there, all the way through a steel tube brazed to and sort of wrapped around the seat tube, whence the cable emerged to pull on the yoke. Despite that bike not having been used that much in its life, the teflon was chewed through by the original cable chafing where it went around the seat tube. I was able to fit a piece of spiral stainless (bare) housing (SunTour type typically used for bar-end shifters and the loop from the rear derailleur to chain stay stop) through the tube, and silicone it in place. The replacement brake cable (slick Jagwire burnished stainless type) barely fit through the housing bent like that, and had a bit of resistance, but the brake springs pull it through just fine in practice, and it feels like nothing when braking. I wouldn't want teflon in that spot anymore. Moral of the story: check it once in awhile.


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Old 06-27-20, 01:32 PM
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Wow. You guys are awesome. If I want to use this wheel set let me ask you this. Is there another cassette that would allow it to work better? 11-32 8 speed? Something else? Is there a way to use a six speed?
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Old 06-27-20, 02:10 PM
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I think that the Crane GS may have been designed for 32t max. On the other end, it was designed for perhaps a 13t, so between the more-flexible chain and the slightly-bigger gap when using the smallest cogs, shifting may feel unresponsive to fairly large lever movements.

To clarify my adding of the plastic/teflon noodle to the cable guide, as Charles suggested yes it was to reduce friction. Especially when bar-end levers are used, the length of cable between the shift lever and the cable guide is pretty long, so the cable acts like a rubber band in response to any back-and-forth friction forces generated there, which makes the shifter feel just like it's connected to a rubber band instead of to a cable. Add that to to the increased chain gap and increased chain flexibility and like I said it might take pretty large lever movements to shift back and forth between the smaller cogs.

As far as the chain possibly being too short/tight, the first symptom of chain becoming too short (for the axle position used) will be that the shifting to and especially from the largest cog will be unresponsive to lever movement, particularly with the chain on the big ring.
This dual-sprung derailer won't be damaged by a full-tight chain (it can move completely out of the way), but a chain that goes full-tight poses risk of damage to chain, cassette, hub, frame and crank/bb as the tension force perhaps goes through the roof as such a shift is completed with modest pedaling force.

One more thing is that modern cable housings that are pre-lubricated can really improve shifting. Shimano SP41 shift housing uses just the right kind of lube that reduces friction to almost nothing, which is great when the cables are on the long side.
The motion error of the cabling between the shifter and the derailer will be found to equal the sum of each source of friction force multiplied by the elastic length of cable upstream toward the shift lever. So it's the cable guide and especially the rear-most loop of cable housing that most needs to be friction-free for best shifting.
Be especially wary of any stainless-steel cable guide feature or housing that has a modern stainless steel cable running against it, as stainless steel really tends to stick to itself (cold-welding on a microscopic scale).
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Old 06-27-20, 02:23 PM
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If you look around, you can find a SunTour New Winner "Ultra 6" freewheel that fit in 120 mm OLD, replacing a 5-speed freewheel. They also made a (perhaps more available because more popular in the day) "Ultra 7" that was 7 speeds fitting in 126 mm OLD. I have one of those, along with a SunTour regular New Winner 6 for 126. All 3 of these shift fine with a 3/32" chain, but I think that their smallest cog may be 13 or even 14, and they are not "Hyperglide" type with teeth machined to facilitate chain transfer -- instead they shift with more of a "clunk" (which I find very satisfying, but it's not modern). More recently Shimano, SunRace and SunLite have made 7-speed freewheels (13 or 14 to 28), but whether those fit on 126 mm or require 130, I'm not sure. Those seem to be more "Hyperglide" types.

Another option, if your 10-speed wheel is Shimano--freehub-compatible (includes SRAM, SunRace, IRD for the most part) and you don't mind re-dishing it somewhat, is to fit an earlier model of the Shimano Hyperglide (or Hyperglide/Uniglide compatible, same function) freehub that was intended for 7-speed cassettes. It's about 3 mm shorter than the one for 130 and 135 mm OLD 8-speed cassettes -- you might be able to get a wheel configured with that down below 130 mm OLD, and you could even use Sheldon Brown's "8 of 9 on 7" or "9 of 10 on 7" method to achieve some More Cowbell in that department. (Go to that link and search for "8 of 9 on 7"; but I advise you to read the whole page, which is incredibly informative.) An advantage of going this way would be that you'd be more likely to have the friction shifting work with older shifters -- less total cable travel required -- and yet give you way more than 5 speeds rear.
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Old 06-27-20, 02:48 PM
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The answer to your question is yes a World Voyageur with original parts (39/52, a Crane GS, and Suntour bar end shifters) will shift a 12-25 ten speed cassett and will most likley go eleven. 13 to 34 7 speed is a not a problem I dont have a 10 speed that large but i don't see why it would not work. As a W.V. is 126 mm from the factory I would just put the wheel in to test, it if sanafactory then spread the frame, no need to do anything with brake bridge. Things to be aware of , you may need to adda 1/2 or 1 mm washer to the drive side axel, its tight. A 114 link chain will work with 52/34 but your mechanic might want to add a link or two. Good luck on your project World Voyageurs are great bikes
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Old 06-27-20, 03:01 PM
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Posters above mentioned the friction in the cables. You can split modern derailleur cable to get the teflon liner and it will slip in the wound housing giving you teflon lined original housing
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Old 06-27-20, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Paul View Post
I posted something like this in mechanics but figure some people here know the answer and donít read that section.

I understand lots of people want to keep a vintage bike stock. But letís say someone had a Ď73 World Voyageur and wanted to use a modern set of wheels they already own from a ten speed carbon road bike. The goal is to get better wheels and more tire and gearing options. I think the original is 14-32 five speed. The frame would be sent to a frame shop to be widened to 130mm with new brake post.

Would an 8 speed 11-34 cassette work with the vintage bar end friction shifters and Crane GS long cage derailleur?
That would be iffy. I don't think the Crane GS derailleur would have enough inward travel to get to the big cog. The difference in modern chains (narrower, more flexible, less prominent side plates) would be my other worry with combining an old derailleur and a new chain.

FWIW: I built a 1977 Schwinn Superior with a complete mid-'90's Shimano XTR group. It's a fantastic ride.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ohpv/a...57642470085394

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Old 06-29-20, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
The answer to your question is yes a World Voyageur with original parts (39/52, a Crane GS, and Suntour bar end shifters) will shift a 12-25 ten speed cassett and will most likley go eleven. 13 to 34 7 speed is a not a problem I dont have a 10 speed that large but i don't see why it would not work. As a W.V. is 126 mm from the factory I would just put the wheel in to test, it if sanafactory then spread the frame, no need to do anything with brake bridge. Things to be aware of , you may need to adda 1/2 or 1 mm washer to the drive side axel, its tight. A 114 link chain will work with 52/34 but your mechanic might want to add a link or two. Good luck on your project World Voyageurs are great bikes
Well son of a gun. I kept thinking it was 120 so thanks for pointing this out. I was about to say forget it Iíll just go with original but I put the back wheel in and it looks so good Iíd really like to try to make it work. Guess Iíll finish cleaning everything up and back together, get a cassette and see if I can make it work.

So I tried the front wheel and couldnít get it to fit the fork end. Looks like itís maybe a mm off. Not sure how to bend it and hate to Drexel the chrome. Any ideas there?
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Old 06-30-20, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Paul View Post
So I tried the front wheel and couldnít get it to fit the fork end. Looks like itís maybe a mm off. Not sure how to bend it and hate to Dremel the chrome. Any ideas there?
Well, it got that way somehow- possibly by getting dropped on the fork when the wheel was removed. I'd pry open the fork ends by wedging a couple big screwdrivers in between the tips. Be careful and only move them enough so the axle fits. I'd double-check the alignment of the fork ends, too- there's no telling what was mangled when they got bent.
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Old 07-01-20, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
If you look around, you can find a SunTour New Winner "Ultra 6" freewheel that fit in 120 mm OLD, replacing a 5-speed freewheel. They also made a (perhaps more available because more popular in the day) "Ultra 7" that was 7 speeds fitting in 126 mm OLD. I have one of those, along with a SunTour regular New Winner 6 for 126. All 3 of these shift fine with a 3/32" chain, but I think that their smallest cog may be 13 or even 14, and they are not "Hyperglide" type with teeth machined to facilitate chain transfer -- instead they shift with more of a "clunk" (which I find very satisfying, but it's not modern). More recently Shimano, SunRace and SunLite have made 7-speed freewheels (13 or 14 to 28), but whether those fit on 126 mm or require 130, I'm not sure. Those seem to be more "Hyperglide" types.

Another option, if your 10-speed wheel is Shimano--freehub-compatible (includes SRAM, SunRace, IRD for the most part) and you don't mind re-dishing it somewhat, is to fit an earlier model of the Shimano Hyperglide (or Hyperglide/Uniglide compatible, same function) freehub that was intended for 7-speed cassettes. It's about 3 mm shorter than the one for 130 and 135 mm OLD 8-speed cassettes -- you might be able to get a wheel configured with that down below 130 mm OLD, and you could even use Sheldon Brown's "8 of 9 on 7" or "9 of 10 on 7" method to achieve some More Cowbell in that department. (Go to that link and search for "8 of 9 on 7"; but I advise you to read the whole page, which is incredibly informative.) An advantage of going this way would be that you'd be more likely to have the friction shifting work with older shifters -- less total cable travel required -- and yet give you way more than 5 speeds rear.
i read it. Thanks for passing it on. I didnít understand it all but sounds like maybe this is doable.
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Old 07-01-20, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
Well, it got that way somehow- possibly by getting dropped on the fork when the wheel was removed. I'd pry open the fork ends by wedging a couple big screwdrivers in between the tips. Be careful and only move them enough so the axle fits. I'd double-check the alignment of the fork ends, too- there's no telling what was mangled when they got bent.
so, turns out maybe there was a burr or something right at the opening. I just filed it a little and it went in. Although I did have to spread the fork a good bit.
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Old 07-01-20, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
The answer to your question is yes a World Voyageur with original parts (39/52, a Crane GS, and Suntour bar end shifters) will shift a 12-25 ten speed cassett and will most likley go eleven. 13 to 34 7 speed is a not a problem I dont have a 10 speed that large but i don't see why it would not work. As a W.V. is 126 mm from the factory I would just put the wheel in to test, it if sanafactory then spread the frame, no need to do anything with brake bridge. Things to be aware of , you may need to adda 1/2 or 1 mm washer to the drive side axel, its tight. A 114 link chain will work with 52/34 but your mechanic might want to add a link or two. Good luck on your project World Voyageurs are great bikes
Can you tell me what ďadd a 1/2 or 1mm washer to the drive side axle, itís tightĒ means?

Also how do I pick a chain?
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Old 07-01-20, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Paul View Post
Can you tell me what ďadd a 1/2 or 1mm washer to the drive side axle, itís tightĒ means?

Also how do I pick a chain?
You may need a 0.5 to 1mm washer on the axle's drive side to space the small cog away from the dropout. Older frames often have pieces/parts in that space. Newer cassette hubs count on that space being clear of impediments.

If you're running a ten-speed cassette, you need a ten-speed chain.
If you're running a nine-speed cassette, you need a nine-speed chain.
​​​​​​​If you're running an eight-speed cassette, you need an eight-speed chain.
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Old 07-01-20, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
You may need a 0.5 to 1mm washer on the axle's drive side to space the small cog away from the dropout. Older frames often have pieces/parts in that space. Newer cassette hubs count on that space being clear of impediments.

If you're running an eight-speed cassette, you need an eight-speed chain.
Or, if necessary, you can add .5mm spacer and run a 9 speed chain with 8 speed cassette. I had to add the .5mm spacer and a 9 speed chain with 7 speeds to get just enough clearance.

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