Help with frame identification?
#1
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Help with frame identification?
Hi, could someone help me identify the this frame?
I can't post photos because I am too new to the forum so I listed a few of the characteristics below. I don't know which components are original and would also appreciate some guidance in that regard.
Thank you so much in advance!
Bike frame
I can't post photos because I am too new to the forum so I listed a few of the characteristics below. I don't know which components are original and would also appreciate some guidance in that regard.
Thank you so much in advance!
Bike frame
- White frame with Pinarello decals + Columbus Matrix decal.
- Triangle engravings instead of the typical Treviso flower.
- No Pinarello name/logo engravings.
- M50 engraving under the bottom bracket.
- Gipiemme dropouts.
- Internal rear break cable routing.
- Campagnolo: front gear deraileur, wheel rims
- Miche: breaks, chain wheel, crank arm, whee hubs and headset
- Shimano 105: break levers, gear shifters, back gear deraileur
- Cinelli: stem and handlebars (giro d'italia)
- San Marco: saddle
#2
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#3
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Carbon: Fuji SL2.1 Di2.......Aluminum: Cannondale Synapse 105........Steel: Vintage Specialized Sirrus
...
Carbon: Fuji SL2.1 Di2.......Aluminum: Cannondale Synapse 105........Steel: Vintage Specialized Sirrus
...
#4
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Pantograph on the fork crown? That would give a more definitive clue.
I imagine no matter what frame it turns out to be, that it was bought as a frame perhaps (and then built by a PO), but not necessarily.
With GPM drops, perhaps a contract build for Pinarello? Usually GPM drops were reserved for a lower tubing set (tre tubi, Oria, Aelle, etc...).
I imagine no matter what frame it turns out to be, that it was bought as a frame perhaps (and then built by a PO), but not necessarily.
With GPM drops, perhaps a contract build for Pinarello? Usually GPM drops were reserved for a lower tubing set (tre tubi, Oria, Aelle, etc...).
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1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
#5
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Looking at the OP’s album it appears that the fork crown is pantographed with a fancy K. Bottom bracket has no drain holes. Rear dropouts are Gipiemme.
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Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
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#6
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Looks a bit like a Villata product for Giai I recently saw.
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1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
#8
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Thank you all for your replies! I just uploaded a picture of the fork crown. It's a K, and it does look exactly like the Albuch Kotter that martl shows in the post. Do you think it's only the fork that could have been replaced or the whole frame (and someone just added Pinarello decals)? I found that Kotter bikes could also come with Gipiemme dropouts.
#9
Cyclotouriste


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A similar K seems to have been used by Ken Evans for a while. Less likely candidate perhaps, as it's an Australian builder. And the frame would probably have had 'Kenevans' dropouts.


#10
Thank you all for your replies! I just uploaded a picture of the fork crown. It's a K, and it does look exactly like the Albuch Kotter that martl shows in the post. Do you think it's only the fork that could have been replaced or the whole frame (and someone just added Pinarello decals)? I found that Kotter bikes could also come with Gipiemme dropouts.
#11
Couple things to check on this frame: what's the seat post size (I believe Matrix AKA Cromor will take a 27.2 but if it's smaller then that decal is suspect, too). Then pull the fork and see if there's "rifling" in the inner butt of the steerer (you don't have to pull the fork since you can check that with just a good flashlight) but to see if the steerer is stamped with (hopefully) the same "M50" as the BB shell.
AFAIK a Matrix fork might NOT have gotten the "rifled with spiraled ridges" steerer used on most every other Columbus frame (SL and up) but there will always be exceptions. Are the fork-ends stamped GPM too (or Campy)?
The fact that is has some chrome on the frame (DO surfaces and chainstay) might make a full-chrome fork more likely...maybe.
Last if there are some more pix of Kotter frames from the same era to compare with you might find matching (or not matching) frame details, like how the cable routing is done (with guide tube) in the top tube and the nicely done transitions on the DOs-to-chainstays joints.
It MIGHT be a lower-cost frame (Kotter or not) but looks to be nicely built, so it wasn't a slap-dash product. I agree it's very unlikely this is a Pinarello of any type.
AFAIK a Matrix fork might NOT have gotten the "rifled with spiraled ridges" steerer used on most every other Columbus frame (SL and up) but there will always be exceptions. Are the fork-ends stamped GPM too (or Campy)?
The fact that is has some chrome on the frame (DO surfaces and chainstay) might make a full-chrome fork more likely...maybe.
Last if there are some more pix of Kotter frames from the same era to compare with you might find matching (or not matching) frame details, like how the cable routing is done (with guide tube) in the top tube and the nicely done transitions on the DOs-to-chainstays joints.
It MIGHT be a lower-cost frame (Kotter or not) but looks to be nicely built, so it wasn't a slap-dash product. I agree it's very unlikely this is a Pinarello of any type.
Last edited by unworthy1; 11-14-24 at 12:15 PM.
#12
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Bikes: 1956 Rudge; 1981 Miyata; 1994 Breezer; 1987 Raleigh Mtn Trials; 1952 R.O. Harrison; 1994 Concorde; 1949 Rotrax; 1964 A.S. Gillott; Early 60s Frejus; ~1979 RRB track; Unknown Interwar track
Also similar to my Puch Mistral Ultima which is SLX tubing, with Gipiemme dropouts; supposedly a Bianchi frame.
I really ought to finish building that bike...
Phil
I really ought to finish building that bike...
Phil
#13
That was my first thought, but as you mentioned, the rest of the frame doesn't tell the same story. I believe Ken's frames have a four digit serial. Still, could be a Kenevans fork.
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#15
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What year is that one? AD wasn't "building the high end" anymore by then I assume.
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1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
#16
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Ref: My Austro-Daimler "Vent Noir II" Bicycle And Brief History of Steyr Daimler Puch
#17
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Puch was sold to Piaggio & C. S.p.A. of Italy in mid 87. That company included Bianchi and Puch frames then carry a "Made in Italy" sticker.
Ref: My Austro-Daimler "Vent Noir II" Bicycle And Brief History of Steyr Daimler Puch
Ref: My Austro-Daimler "Vent Noir II" Bicycle And Brief History of Steyr Daimler Puch
__________________
1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
1987 Crest C'dale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin EL, 1990 Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Isoard, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 C'dale M500, 1984 Mercian Pro, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi ?, 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super, 1971 Raleigh Internat'l, 1998 Corratec U+D, 1991 Peugeot Slimestone, 1987 Bianchi Volpe, 1995 Trek 750
#18
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From: Mid-Atlantic
Bikes: 1956 Rudge; 1981 Miyata; 1994 Breezer; 1987 Raleigh Mtn Trials; 1952 R.O. Harrison; 1994 Concorde; 1949 Rotrax; 1964 A.S. Gillott; Early 60s Frejus; ~1979 RRB track; Unknown Interwar track
I really want to find a reliable working Piaggio scooter.
For a price I can afford...
Phil
For a price I can afford...
Phil
Last edited by PhilFo; 11-15-24 at 11:47 AM.
#19
I sold a Bianchi-made Puch to a C&Ver here some years ago not an Ultima but a tic lower (Mistral) that had an SLX decal but the crowd here decided that was not true: actually was full SL.
Mine had a replacement chrome fork (Bottecchia) cause that's how I bought it, but no front-end damage, the seller had "upgraded" to a CF fork then lost the original...
Nice frame, very much a re-badged Bianchi. The GPM DOs used on these were the style with round ring and threaded hole in the "web".
I'll look for those pix just for grins...
Mine had a replacement chrome fork (Bottecchia) cause that's how I bought it, but no front-end damage, the seller had "upgraded" to a CF fork then lost the original...
Nice frame, very much a re-badged Bianchi. The GPM DOs used on these were the style with round ring and threaded hole in the "web".
I'll look for those pix just for grins...
#20
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I sold a Bianchi-made Puch to a C&Ver here some years ago not an Ultima but a tic lower (Mistral) that had an SLX decal but the crowd here decided that was not true: actually was full SL.
Mine had a replacement chrome fork (Bottecchia) cause that's how I bought it, but no front-end damage, the seller had "upgraded" to a CF fork then lost the original...
Nice frame, very much a re-badged Bianchi. The GPM DOs used on these were the style with round ring and threaded hole in the "web".
I'll look for those pix just for grins...
Mine had a replacement chrome fork (Bottecchia) cause that's how I bought it, but no front-end damage, the seller had "upgraded" to a CF fork then lost the original...
Nice frame, very much a re-badged Bianchi. The GPM DOs used on these were the style with round ring and threaded hole in the "web".
I'll look for those pix just for grins...

#21
and a damn nice build you did on that!
Here's a few pix, focused on the GPM DOs just for ref.
IIRC the decal on the bottom of the seat tube includes the Bianchi importer's address which back then was in South San Francisco, and I had occasion to visit them once in a futile attempt to drum up some business for a Design Firm I worked for at the time. We went to Specialized in Mountain View as well, same results. Ah, good times...back then I might have been riding either a re-fabbed Gitane TdF or a Raleigh Triumph (531C)... both long ago sold





Here's a few pix, focused on the GPM DOs just for ref.
IIRC the decal on the bottom of the seat tube includes the Bianchi importer's address which back then was in South San Francisco, and I had occasion to visit them once in a futile attempt to drum up some business for a Design Firm I worked for at the time. We went to Specialized in Mountain View as well, same results. Ah, good times...back then I might have been riding either a re-fabbed Gitane TdF or a Raleigh Triumph (531C)... both long ago sold





#23
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From: Mid-Atlantic
Bikes: 1956 Rudge; 1981 Miyata; 1994 Breezer; 1987 Raleigh Mtn Trials; 1952 R.O. Harrison; 1994 Concorde; 1949 Rotrax; 1964 A.S. Gillott; Early 60s Frejus; ~1979 RRB track; Unknown Interwar track
Mine is just like that one. Thought it was an Ultima, but it's just labeled Mistral, my bad. Tubing is spiral fluted inside. I still have the original fork.
Phil
Phil
#24
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Mine not having the original fork, I don't know what it might be.
#25
Tinker-er



Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,609
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From: Mid-Atlantic
Bikes: 1956 Rudge; 1981 Miyata; 1994 Breezer; 1987 Raleigh Mtn Trials; 1952 R.O. Harrison; 1994 Concorde; 1949 Rotrax; 1964 A.S. Gillott; Early 60s Frejus; ~1979 RRB track; Unknown Interwar track
I think mine may be professional then. I'll have to check when I get home.
Phil
Phil









