I was regreasing a set of tandem wheels These have Phil Woods hubs. The hubs are the first model with bearings that don't come out. I had "rebuilt" these type of hub before by removing the plastic/rubber seals (dust caps) and then picking out old grease with a dental pick, followed with new grease.
No issues with the front hub. Seals out, clean, re-greased and seals back in.

The rear hub seems to have two different sizes of seals.

The freewheel side seal popped out and that side was cleaned and the seal reinstalled.

I use a dental pick to pop out the seals. For the drum brake side the seal seemed very stiff and when I started to lift it, it immediately contorted.

I had a problem. I could have stopped but the hub needed grease. If I continued I might wreck the seal. I continued hoping I could both remove the seal and reuse it.
Unfortunately it continued to twist.

Here's Here's what the seal looks like now.



This is what an undamaged seal should look like.



The drum brake side seems to have a slightly larger size seal. I dry tested it with the freewheel side seal and it seems the axle on that side is too big for the seal to fit over.

I emailed Phil Wood and it seems they no longer carry parts for the first generation hubs. They are asking their supplier if the supplier can help but it doesn't seem likely.

So, I'm looking for a solution.

Surely someone else has had this issue. I can't simply use another seal or dust cap as Phil Woods hubs have very wide axles, wider than any other hub axle I've seen.

The alternative is to either mail the complete wheel to Phil Woods to have them replace the entire axle or strip off the hub, send just the hub to have the axle replaced and then rebuild it when the hub returns. Either way a big job and probably a big expense.

It's a long shot, but you could try a supplier like this one: https://simplybearings.co.uk/

Do it.

The road to H**L, I know it well.

hi there , In a former life I sold industrial bearings for about twenty five years .

Hard to be sure from the first pic but those two pics appear to show the same seal of a NTN brand 6002LLB . ( LLB = sealed both sides )
It is a very common standard deep groove ball bearing . Any industrial bearing supplier will have them .
The trick for you is to find an NTN bearing stockist . If you can get a new bearing it give you two chances to pop the seal out and replace that mangled one .

If you cant find an NTN brand replacing the bearings is the next option ?
Surely if Phil was able to put them into the hubs they can be removed somehow .

Just my two cents worth from the antipodes

^^^^^ beat me to it!
Maybe find a 6002L bearing and try to use the seal from that? You could also have a machinist make you one out of a hunk of good brass with a bit of a lip to pop it in and out.
There are definitely ways around this, it's just a challenge and a puzzle.
(Second edit) One more thing, I have at least 12 old seals from 6202 bearings which I replaced on my wife's cargo trike. They are slightly thicker, as in the hole of the donut is smaller. You are welcome to play around with them if you like. I can grab them out of the garage and pop them in the mail, no problem. Bearings are pretty cheap on the site from the big river in South America, so I say buy a selection, get a hobby knife, and start gently prying.
Last idea is to have your seals 3d printed.
Phil

1simplexnut PhilFo hazetguy

The Model number 6002LB has now changed to describe a new sealed bearing (which apparently is a different size than the old ones used by Phil Woods, back in the day).

The new sealed bearing looks like this.

​​​​​​

However, all may not be lost. I can purchase the new bearings locally so I'll go in and compare bearings and if they are the same size, then I'll buy some and try popping out a a seal and see if it fits.
I have also emailed NTN directly to ask what they suggest.

as Philfo said, "There are definitely ways around this, it's just a challenge and a puzzle."

If/when I find a work around I'll post it. There a lot of old Phil hubs for sale that just need grease.

First attempt I’d try pressing in a vise, then tap the creases with a hammer on a hardwood block. I don’t think it would work smoothly but I’d still try.

My experience with old Phil hubs is that even when neglected, and I continue to ride on them, their almost complete lack of viable grease lubrication doesn't prevent their rolling smoothly for many more thousands of miles.

On one such (front) hub, there was a bit of wiggle at the rim, so I tried to poke through the axle and knock the end cap off to get the axle out.
I ended up banging away with a hammer on a QR skewer, even after heating the end cap with smoking-hot torch heat, before giving up entirely.
Then I noticed that the loose bearings and loose wiggle at the rim was GONE, so I resumed riding on that wheel and the looseness hasn't resumed in the past 3500 miles.
I didn't even bother top add grease.

For the sake of a silly question how does that bearing pictured differ from your one ?
Apart from lack of part number on the seal that makes me think that it is a generic picture to cover more than one bearing .
NTN always had a number on the seal BITD .
It should measure 15mm id x32mm od x 9 mm wide

Mr. 66 I will try that, not like I can save the old seal for anything.

1simplexnut This is what the Phil hub looks like without the seal. The space that the seal covers is narrower and the center hole (where the axles is), looks to be wider.



Here is one email I had back from Phil Woods:Hello Wesley,

Unfortunately we do not have loose/extra bearings seals. The other issue is you have a older style bearing we had made for us by NTN, we currently have our bearings made for us by NSK. I do not believe the bearing seals are interchangeable. I have left a message with our engineering contact at NSK to see if they can tell me if their seal might work on a older NTN bearing. I will let you know what I hear back.

Best Regards,

Tomorrow I will try and see if the seal posted NTN bearing will fit.

Yep that makes sense . Doubt the nsk seal would fit .
That other pic from the net is just a generic bearing picture . Not a 6002 at all .
That is why it does not look dimensionally like yours .
Apart from some odd ball versions a 6002 is a 6002,dimensionally no matter who makes it but seal systems vary between brands

All good fun
Hope you get it sorted easily

Wes, Buffalo Bearings on Military Road is another local shop that has been around a long time. Let me know if I can help.

I also have access to a 3D printer if you want to go that route.

couple trivia things to mention You MIGHT be able to search for a replacement based on dimensions alone from a bearing house with online catalog info you should be able to get at least the OD and ID (donut hole) but miaght have to guess at the thickness, however since Phil is working with you they should now that DIM. Which also means it's probably REALLY custom or they'd have already done this look-up.

Another detail I learned from MiamiJim who did the extensive how-to Wiki re: removing seals and cleaning/regreasing with bearings in place: most "rubber seals", which is the "RS" in part numbers (ie 6900 2RS. in this case a rubber seal on TWO sides) have a spring steel center which is covered with synthetic "rubber" and just the edges are thin rubber alone (not steel) that fits into the groove in the bearing housing. So Jim's advice was to use a thin but wide blade to pry JUST on the thin rubber INSIDE edge (the ID or Donut Hole, not the outside edge) of this outboard seal.

All that seemed counter-intuitive to me but...he had expertise and I only tried once (after damaging that spring steel which NO amount of blacksmithing would ever flatten out again) and his technique worked!
Blade he showed was the "mat cutter" version of one of those Snap-off type knives like an Olfa, but the size closer to a Stanley knife (but NOT as thick a blade as Stanley-type).

Some might have luck with some sort of Xacto or scalpel blade but I think a common #11 is too pointed, you want to use the EDGE to lift (not a point) and NOT to cut that edge! that's what does the actual sealing.

Find that MiamiJim Wiki and study it; then practice on a junk 2RS bearing you can afford to waste

Unfortunately in this case, the axle cap has a flange on it, probably something to do with the ill-fated Phil disk brake. That damn flange is what caused all the problems, and it might make it impossible to put even a brand new replacement seal back on.

I think you may have to knock off that axle cap. It's a press-fit, kinda tight but I have had success knocking it off with a long thin punch down the QR hole from the other side. Heat applied to the cap will help. I would employ it as a "first resort", not a last resort after failing cold. A blow-dryer if that's all you have, but a heat gun like you use on heat-shrink tubing would be better. Heat it quickly and knock the cap off immediately before the heat conducts in to the real axle, that the cap is pressed to, we don't want that to expand too.

I have also removed the whole axle + bearings subassembly from the hub "can" on Phil hubs a couple times. Then you could send just that part to Phil for new bearings.

Removing the axle subassembly isn't hard, on a single-bike hub anyway (dunno if tandem is different). In fact plenty of people have done it accidentally! Just thread on a freewheel, then remove it with a QR skewer clamped down on the FW remover. As the FW threads off, it pulls the axle + bearings out of the can, like a cotterless crank extractor.

Then when PW sends you the refurbished subassembly, you need to press it back in, so that could be the tricky part. I know how to do it with a long piece of all-thread, a piece of pipe sized just right and a couple nuts and washers, but it's a bit hard to explain. Maybe PW can advise you on that, possibly including the advice to NOT try this on your own. Just about any old arbor press will make quick work of it on a bare hub, and I know someone in your town has one, they're quite common in many kinds of shop (even hobbyists), but a press with a deep enough throat to fit a built wheel is a rare thing.

Shipping the whole wheel to them costs a bit more but takes all the danger and uncertainty out of it.

bulgie Thank you. I have a frame builder about 10 miles from my front door. I really like the idea of shipping a small part versus a large wheel box. Frame builder has the press. I'll run your post by him.

Could you sneak an appropriate sized o-ring into that gap to provide a lip seal instead?

Chombi1
I went to a hardware store and grabbed a rubber plumbing O ring that fit over the axle. It doesn't quite seal the hub but for now I judge it good enough. I believe that the drum brake would also protect the grease from dirt. For now the wheel is up high on a shelf so the rubber should prevent dust entering while I decide the next step.

For whatever it's worth, perhaps not much: I have an older set of Phil Woods 40-hole flanges. The bearings were glued in place. The glue was probably cyanoacrylate, superglue. One of the bearings on the rear wheel came loose after about 7 years and I could slide the entire axle out. Two different sized bearings, one still firmly attached. I lightly superglued it back in place, but haven't used the wheel since. I think cyanoacrylate is mildly soluble in acetone. It also apparently is softened by some lubricants or maybe something like WD-40, which is probably what happened to me. I used WD-40 liberally on a wet chain after rainy commutes. It might be possible to remove and replace the bearing yourself. Correct placement of the bearing is fairly simple if the second bearing is still in place. Don't know if I'd want to mess with it myself.

I just had a first Gen hub rebuilt at Phil in May, not crazy expensive.
I had new axle, bearings and caps installed. $210 with shipping.
Just the bearings is just over a hundred as I remember. One week turnaround. Excellent work. Very pleased.
I'd send it in to Phil and have them replace the bearings.

interesting notes... I have had some experience with adhesives as well as "reversing" some (mistakes happen!) and I'd ask Phil what they could have used to glue in bearings BITD. Since they always reco'd LocTite (Blue) for the threaded BB rings, I'd wonder if they used LocTite (green?) for a press-fit like bearings in a hub shell? Phil techs should know.
As noted acetone will loosen some glues (epoxy for example) and not sure how effective it is for CA, but for that there is a "CA De-bonder" fluid made just for the job. Good to have on-hand especially when some CA glue gets literally "on hand"!