BROOKS Website
02-22-08 | 11:48 PM
#51
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
From: Oakland, CA
There needs to be a product matrix that lists comparative specs like widths, lengths, seatpost clamp, sprung, etc. An easy way to figure out which saddle suits you best would be great.
A more extensive FAQ would be appreciated too especially if it covered squeaking saddles
A more extensive FAQ would be appreciated too especially if it covered squeaking saddles
02-22-08 | 11:52 PM
#52
Seņor Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 18,473
Likes: 1,558
From: Hardy, VA
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
There needs to be a product matrix that lists comparative specs like widths, lengths, seatpost clamp, sprung, etc. An easy way to figure out which saddle suits you best would be great.
A more extensive FAQ would be appreciated too especially if it covered squeaking saddles
A more extensive FAQ would be appreciated too especially if it covered squeaking saddles
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
02-23-08 | 12:38 AM
#53
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham-England & Venezia-Italy
Bikes: Pegoretti, Brompton, Pashley, Paul Smith by Mercian, Cannondale, etc.
I'm most interested in finding out exactly what the letter codes mean on the cantle plate of older
Brooks saddles (if that's even knowable at this point). I've always gone by the information found here:
https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
Unfortunately, that indicates that the meaning of the letter codes is lost to the ages.
Is that true? Regardless, it would be nice to have that kind of information about date
codes on the Brooks site so collectors like me can easily find it.
Brooks saddles (if that's even knowable at this point). I've always gone by the information found here:
https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
Unfortunately, that indicates that the meaning of the letter codes is lost to the ages.
Is that true? Regardless, it would be nice to have that kind of information about date
codes on the Brooks site so collectors like me can easily find it.
-"9" and "2" stand for 1992
-"C" is the month and as it is the 3rd letter of the alphabet it means March
Don't ask me how my English colleagues and forefathers came up with this. I guess it was a way to kind of hide the date of production.
Andrea
BROOKS ENGLAND LTD.
02-23-08 | 12:44 AM
#54
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham-England & Venezia-Italy
Bikes: Pegoretti, Brompton, Pashley, Paul Smith by Mercian, Cannondale, etc.
Dear AllenG
we are working on a new document to explain which leather tops are common to more than 1 model. For example:
B17 and Flyer have the same top
B66, B67, B68, B73, B135 all have the same top
B33, B190, B18 all have a dedicated top which is unique for that specific model
Andrea
we are working on a new document to explain which leather tops are common to more than 1 model. For example:
B17 and Flyer have the same top
B66, B67, B68, B73, B135 all have the same top
B33, B190, B18 all have a dedicated top which is unique for that specific model
Andrea
02-23-08 | 12:49 AM
#55
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham-England & Venezia-Italy
Bikes: Pegoretti, Brompton, Pashley, Paul Smith by Mercian, Cannondale, etc.
We know that white is popular, but making white BROOKS saddles is not easy. The leather we use is 5 mm thick, it is not just a cover. When you mould it the colour cracks. This casues alot of wast in material. With 1 bend of leather we normally make 10 saddles. With a white bend only 4 or 5!
Andrea
BROOKS ENGLAND LTD.
Andrea
BROOKS ENGLAND LTD.
02-23-08 | 12:53 AM
#56
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
From: Oakland, CA
Pretty sure a white Brooks could sell for a pretty penny even given high production cost
The fixed gear crowd seems to like white saddles, they've been buying up old Vetta white vinyl saddles https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Vetta-Wh...QQcmdZViewItem
The fixed gear crowd seems to like white saddles, they've been buying up old Vetta white vinyl saddles https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Vetta-Wh...QQcmdZViewItem
02-23-08 | 01:10 AM
#57
Veni, Vidi, Bici
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 10
Bikes: Colnagos (2005 Brera Art, 2007 President LdV, 2007 CF6)
The code stamped on the underside of the saddle is the date of production. Since a few decades you find a 3 digit sequence: "number", "letter", "number". For example 9C2:
-"9" and "2" stand for 1992
-"C" is the month and as it is the 3rd letter of the alphabet it means March
Don't ask me how my English colleagues and forefathers came up with this. I guess it was a way to kind of hide the date of production.
Andrea
BROOKS ENGLAND LTD.
-"9" and "2" stand for 1992
-"C" is the month and as it is the 3rd letter of the alphabet it means March
Don't ask me how my English colleagues and forefathers came up with this. I guess it was a way to kind of hide the date of production.
Andrea
BROOKS ENGLAND LTD.
"The stamp denoted the month and year of manufacture. Mrs. O'Donnell* writes: "Unfortunately, the 'code' book is now lost so we cannot decipher the actual codes used at that time. It is, sadly, not quite as simple as A=January, B=February etc.
.
.
.
*The above Brooks information was provided in an e-mail from Mrs. E. O'Donnell in the Sales Department of Sturmey-Archer, when that company owned Brooks. Mrs. O'Donnell was writing to Robert Williams in response to his query about date codes. Our thanks to these two individuals and to Larry Osborn, who secured a copy of the original e-mail."
I ask because this has come up before on the Classic Rendezvous mailing list (and probably here, too). She seems pretty certain the letters do not straightforwardly correspond to months.
02-23-08 | 01:20 AM
#58
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham-England & Venezia-Italy
Bikes: Pegoretti, Brompton, Pashley, Paul Smith by Mercian, Cannondale, etc.
Thank you. I didn't know until now how to decipher that type of code. But what I was describing is different. On the metal plate of my 1966 Brooks saddle is A66. While I understand the 66 means it was made in 1966, the meaning of the "A" is no longer known. From vintage-trek.com,
"The stamp denoted the month and year of manufacture. Mrs. O'Donnell* writes: "Unfortunately, the 'code' book is now lost so we cannot decipher the actual codes used at that time. It is, sadly, not quite as simple as A=January, B=February etc.
.
.
.
*The above Brooks information was provided in an e-mail from Mrs. E. O'Donnell in the Sales Department of Sturmey-Archer, when that company owned Brooks. Mrs. O'Donnell was writing to Robert Williams in response to his query about date codes. Our thanks to these two individuals and to Larry Osborn, who secured a copy of the original e-mail."
I ask because this has come up before on the Classic Rendezvous mailing list (and probably here, too). She seems pretty certain the letters do not straightforwardly correspond to months.
"The stamp denoted the month and year of manufacture. Mrs. O'Donnell* writes: "Unfortunately, the 'code' book is now lost so we cannot decipher the actual codes used at that time. It is, sadly, not quite as simple as A=January, B=February etc.
.
.
.
*The above Brooks information was provided in an e-mail from Mrs. E. O'Donnell in the Sales Department of Sturmey-Archer, when that company owned Brooks. Mrs. O'Donnell was writing to Robert Williams in response to his query about date codes. Our thanks to these two individuals and to Larry Osborn, who secured a copy of the original e-mail."
I ask because this has come up before on the Classic Rendezvous mailing list (and probably here, too). She seems pretty certain the letters do not straightforwardly correspond to months.
Currently A=January, B=February, etc. I guess in 1966 it was the same even if they wrote A66 rather than how we would write it nowadays (6A6).
Cheers
Andrea
02-23-08 | 01:35 AM
#59
Veni, Vidi, Bici
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 10
Bikes: Colnagos (2005 Brera Art, 2007 President LdV, 2007 CF6)
It's not that critical to me personally that I know when within 1966 my saddle was made. But others have asked about their saddles. There appears to be a difference of opinion between you and the Sturmey-Archer employee. Unless I see something else to substantiate one viewpoint or the other, I'll just pay attention to the numeric part of the code and ignore the letter. Anyway, thanks for responding.
02-23-08 | 05:11 AM
#60
02-23-08 | 07:58 AM
#61
Infamous Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,360
Likes: 6
From: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
While Andrea is here, perhaps we can get clarification on the alleged 'thicker' leather used on a Team Pro compared to the B17, which I have always been told is not true.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
02-23-08 | 08:14 AM
#62
Senior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 741
Likes: 13
Regarding saddles, as elsewhere, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
From Jerome K Jerome's "Three Men on the Bummel" via project Gutenberg:
Yet the Brooks remains - and remains essentially unchanged. And it doesn't look like a pair of kidneys.
The B67 works really well on a folder, it should be noted.
From Jerome K Jerome's "Three Men on the Bummel" via project Gutenberg:
"...this is an imperfect world of joy and sorrow mingled. There may be a better land where bicycle saddles are made out of rainbow, stuffed with cloud; in this world the simplest thing is to get used to something hard. There was that saddle you bought in Birmingham; it was divided in the middle, and looked like a pair of kidneys.”
He said: “You mean that one constructed on anatomical principles.”
“Very likely,” I replied. ... I only know that I tried it myself, and that to a man who wore flesh it was agony. Every time you went over a stone or a rut it nipped you; it was like riding on an irritable lobster.”
He said: “You mean that one constructed on anatomical principles.”
“Very likely,” I replied. ... I only know that I tried it myself, and that to a man who wore flesh it was agony. Every time you went over a stone or a rut it nipped you; it was like riding on an irritable lobster.”
The B67 works really well on a folder, it should be noted.
Last edited by Mooo; 02-23-08 at 12:45 PM.
02-23-08 | 01:02 PM
#65
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 622
Likes: 1
From: Boone NC USA
Bikes: Bianchi hybrid. Dunelt 3-sp. Raleigh basket case. Wanting a Roadster.
Well, I might have looked if it had loaded a bit faster, but then I only have a 5mbs connection.
I do not understand why you would treat a website like a TV ad. Websites are for customers and potentional customers to get information. Anything that interferes with that is contra-productive. The purpose of a website is not to catch a passerby's eye, but to provide information to someone who deliberately came to the site. Yours is like a store requiring a customer to look at a video before allowing him to enter.
I do not understand why you would treat a website like a TV ad. Websites are for customers and potentional customers to get information. Anything that interferes with that is contra-productive. The purpose of a website is not to catch a passerby's eye, but to provide information to someone who deliberately came to the site. Yours is like a store requiring a customer to look at a video before allowing him to enter.
02-23-08 | 01:34 PM
#66
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 12
Dear AllenG
we are working on a new document to explain which leather tops are common to more than 1 model. For example:
B17 and Flyer have the same top
B66, B67, B68, B73, B135 all have the same top
B33, B190, B18 all have a dedicated top which is unique for that specific model
Andrea
we are working on a new document to explain which leather tops are common to more than 1 model. For example:
B17 and Flyer have the same top
B66, B67, B68, B73, B135 all have the same top
B33, B190, B18 all have a dedicated top which is unique for that specific model
Andrea
--Allen
Last edited by Allen; 02-23-08 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Andrea is a man not a ma'am
02-23-08 | 03:26 PM
#67
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 601
Likes: 7
From: Atlanta
Bikes: 1982 Schwinn Super Sport S/P, 1984 Miyata 610, 1985 Panasonic LX 1000, Centurion Pro Tour 15 1983
Dear Sheldon,
I much prefer to see the comments on the forum than receiving emails. The forum keeps the discussion open.
As a marketing manager of BROOKS I think I have the responsability of an icon of cycling, rather than simply of a cycling brand. There aren't many products around that have survived over 100 years and still deliver their function perfectly, so in a way BROOKS belongs to the cycling community.
Thanks for the suggestions which all make sence.
I look forward to receiving more.
Andrea
I much prefer to see the comments on the forum than receiving emails. The forum keeps the discussion open.
As a marketing manager of BROOKS I think I have the responsability of an icon of cycling, rather than simply of a cycling brand. There aren't many products around that have survived over 100 years and still deliver their function perfectly, so in a way BROOKS belongs to the cycling community.
Thanks for the suggestions which all make sence.
I look forward to receiving more.
Andrea
02-23-08 | 04:06 PM
#68
tired
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,651
Likes: 2
From: Portland, OR
Bikes: Breezer Uptown 8, U frame
Drop the worthless Flash and integrate Flash elements where appropriate, providing a usable alternative for those who may not have it.
Make the site more usable by utilizing a more intuitive navigation structure that allows the user to find the information they need as quickly as possible.
Provide more useful information about your products. I find better information about your saddles at sites like walbike.com and Harris Cyclery.
Make the site more usable by utilizing a more intuitive navigation structure that allows the user to find the information they need as quickly as possible.
Provide more useful information about your products. I find better information about your saddles at sites like walbike.com and Harris Cyclery.
I got to see one at NAHBS. Not my cup of tea, but it was very striking.
There is a local bike shop where I live that has a "Wall" of Brooks saddles on display. They say that's not all the saddles Brooks makes, but it looks close enough to me. It's quite a sight. I think you should list shops that have a similar display on your web site. Brooks aficionados would visit them just to see such a thing. Even if it doesn't result in direct sales of your saddles, it sure would be good PR for those shops.
__________________
"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
02-23-08 | 07:53 PM
#69
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,768
Likes: 15
From: Bellingham, WA
It just looks so clean and...expensive.
02-23-08 | 07:58 PM
#70
.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 12,769
Likes: 38
From: Rocket City, No'ala
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
They probably buy a lot of raw hide from the U.S.
02-23-08 | 08:06 PM
#71
.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 12,769
Likes: 38
From: Rocket City, No'ala
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
I could really use a white B-17...
But this reminds me of something for the web site.
I think it would be nice to have "How-to" directions (even if not officially endorsed. with as many disclaimers as you need) such as:
How to punch/lace a saddle.
How to dye a saddle. (I actually considered this as a possible option to get a white Brooks for a bike I have) This may not be feasible, but until you come up with a publicly available white saddle, it will always be in the back of my mind...
How to treat certain conditions (especially old saddles). Especially usability issues, since I actually like the looks of Brooks saddles worn from long years of usage... but secondarily cosmetic issues.
And as far as products:
I understand that making a quality leather saddle isn't cheap, but I would like more budget oriented saddle options instead of high bling. Are there "factory seconds" available? Cosmetically perfect isn't a big deal for me, as long as the durability and comfort aren't impacted... I just can't get myself to pay more for a saddle than I pay for the bike.
We vintage riders often have several bikes... how about "owner loyalty" pricing? I carry a club membership card for the grocery store, I would gladly carry a card for Brooks. Oh, and make the card out of leather.
Thanks for dropping by Andrea, I hope it is helpful to you as a member of the manufacturing sector.
But this reminds me of something for the web site.
I think it would be nice to have "How-to" directions (even if not officially endorsed. with as many disclaimers as you need) such as:
How to punch/lace a saddle.
How to dye a saddle. (I actually considered this as a possible option to get a white Brooks for a bike I have) This may not be feasible, but until you come up with a publicly available white saddle, it will always be in the back of my mind...
How to treat certain conditions (especially old saddles). Especially usability issues, since I actually like the looks of Brooks saddles worn from long years of usage... but secondarily cosmetic issues.
And as far as products:
I understand that making a quality leather saddle isn't cheap, but I would like more budget oriented saddle options instead of high bling. Are there "factory seconds" available? Cosmetically perfect isn't a big deal for me, as long as the durability and comfort aren't impacted... I just can't get myself to pay more for a saddle than I pay for the bike.
We vintage riders often have several bikes... how about "owner loyalty" pricing? I carry a club membership card for the grocery store, I would gladly carry a card for Brooks. Oh, and make the card out of leather.
Thanks for dropping by Andrea, I hope it is helpful to you as a member of the manufacturing sector.
Brooks used to make vinyl covered mattress saddles for the lower end of the market. If you'd like one, I'll mail you the one I've got.
A saddle is something you buy once every several thousand miles. As such, its cost is quite reasonable. A Brooks saddle will last considerably longer so its higher cost relative to cheap and midrange saddles becomes quite competitive.
Plus, they are cool. Put a price on that.
Brooks saddles are not overpriced. You get what you pay for. If they were overpriced, the guy that owns BikesDirect would be selling knock-offs for half-price. The fixie crowd LOVES Brooks saddles.
02-23-08 | 09:49 PM
#72
I think that vanity marketing would help popularize a product line that's clearly superior on technical merits, and long term value.
How about a "logo" saddle, with the logo in a repeat pattern, like designer handbags. Not my cup of tay (I don't own any designer handbags, and eschew clothing with logos), but I'll bet that they'd be very popular with a lot of people. Also colors other than white: red, yellow, blue, gray (I know there are some of these). Ben Day dot patterns and other graphics that could be achieved easily with dye, or embossing. I have one of the out-of-production B5N saddles with a pebbled top surface -- very nice in my opinion.
How about a "logo" saddle, with the logo in a repeat pattern, like designer handbags. Not my cup of tay (I don't own any designer handbags, and eschew clothing with logos), but I'll bet that they'd be very popular with a lot of people. Also colors other than white: red, yellow, blue, gray (I know there are some of these). Ben Day dot patterns and other graphics that could be achieved easily with dye, or embossing. I have one of the out-of-production B5N saddles with a pebbled top surface -- very nice in my opinion.
02-23-08 | 10:24 PM
#73
Fueled by Scoobie Snacks!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
From: Citrus County, Fl
Bikes: 1983 Puch Odyssey, 2004 Giant OCR3
I hate Flash! Even with a fast cable connection, I still have to wait for your site to load. I can imagine how long it takes for people still stuck with dial-up. There are areas near here where you would be lucky to get a 25-27K connection and high speed access is not available other than through satellite. If memory serves, something like 50% of US internet users are still using dial-up, so why create a site that drives half the potential customers crazy. More steak, less sizzle.
02-24-08 | 01:41 AM
#75
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham-England & Venezia-Italy
Bikes: Pegoretti, Brompton, Pashley, Paul Smith by Mercian, Cannondale, etc.