Well constructed frames vs sloppy messes
12-16-08, 11:18 AM
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,831 Times
in
1,997 Posts
That Remy uses a motif darn close to Colnago, I am surprised Ernesto did not club them.
12-16-08, 11:34 AM
#52
Gaeilgeoir
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Holyoke, MA
Posts: 263
Bikes: 2003 Giant Iguana (ONCE yellow), '86 Team Fuji (Blue/Yellow), '87 Schwinn Le Tour (Frost White)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
maybe it doesn't fit the title of the thread perfectly, and if theres another thread on this please forgive my stoopitude, but i know that one area i look at when deciding whether to buy or pass on a bike are the dropouts--stamped vs forged, brazed vs crimped, etc. anyone have any thoughts on that? i have come to some conclusions of my own but i wonder if there's anyone else out there who might need or like to be able to tell the difference between these various dropout types.
12-16-08, 02:03 PM
#53
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,800
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 1,331 Times
in
837 Posts
maybe it doesn't fit the title of the thread perfectly, and if theres another thread on this please forgive my stoopitude, but i know that one area i look at when deciding whether to buy or pass on a bike are the dropouts--stamped vs forged, brazed vs crimped, etc. anyone have any thoughts on that? i have come to some conclusions of my own but i wonder if there's anyone else out there who might need or like to be able to tell the difference between these various dropout types.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
12-16-08, 03:37 PM
#54
Gaeilgeoir
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Holyoke, MA
Posts: 263
Bikes: 2003 Giant Iguana (ONCE yellow), '86 Team Fuji (Blue/Yellow), '87 Schwinn Le Tour (Frost White)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
that is well worth knowing, thanks for that. BTW is that an adjustable reach stem on that baby? do they still make something like that? seems like a great idea.
12-16-08, 03:40 PM
#55
Gaeilgeoir
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Holyoke, MA
Posts: 263
Bikes: 2003 Giant Iguana (ONCE yellow), '86 Team Fuji (Blue/Yellow), '87 Schwinn Le Tour (Frost White)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
that brings up another question, i suppose--how does a newbie tell a stamped D.O. from a forged? any pictorial examples? i always assumed the ones with the raised area around the slot and sort of rounded edges were forged and the ones that look very very flat with sharp edges are stamped, is that right in general?
12-16-08, 03:58 PM
#56
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,701 Times
in
2,521 Posts
that brings up another question, i suppose--how does a newbie tell a stamped D.O. from a forged? any pictorial examples? i always assumed the ones with the raised area around the slot and sort of rounded edges were forged and the ones that look very very flat with sharp edges are stamped, is that right in general?
12-16-08, 04:23 PM
#57
Decrepit Member
12-16-08, 04:26 PM
#58
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
that brings up another question, i suppose--how does a newbie tell a stamped D.O. from a forged? any pictorial examples? i always assumed the ones with the raised area around the slot and sort of rounded edges were forged and the ones that look very very flat with sharp edges are stamped, is that right in general?
-Kurt
__________________
12-17-08, 11:50 AM
#59
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
maybe it doesn't fit the title of the thread perfectly, and if theres another thread on this please forgive my stoopitude, but i know that one area i look at when deciding whether to buy or pass on a bike are the dropouts--stamped vs forged, brazed vs crimped, etc. anyone have any thoughts on that? i have come to some conclusions of my own but i wonder if there's anyone else out there who might need or like to be able to tell the difference between these various dropout types.
12-17-08, 12:01 PM
#60
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
Adding to fearfeasog's question, does the "well constructed" vs. "sloppy mess" discussion extend to alignment of the dropouts, specifically the fork tips? The tips on my '93 Corsa Extra are nowhere near parallel. I'm not the original owner so I don't really know - how much slop would you expect here?
-Kurt
__________________
12-17-08, 12:11 PM
#61
Decrepit Member
Adding to fearfeasog's question, does the "well constructed" vs. "sloppy mess" discussion extend to alignment of the dropouts, specifically the fork tips? The tips on my '93 Corsa Extra are nowhere near parallel. I'm not the original owner so I don't really know - how much slop would you expect here?
Cold setting dropouts so that they're parallel can be done using the Park Tool FFG-2 Dropout Alignment Gauge or similar. Note the caution about cold setting aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, or suspension forks.
12-17-08, 01:22 PM
#63
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
Last one. Dead giveaway - BB has been threaded from one end to the other.
-Kurt
-Kurt
__________________
12-17-08, 01:32 PM
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 13,954
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times
in
78 Posts
#1 is a Panasonic made Schwinn Peloton. Columbus SL/P tubing. Notice that the stays are 'tacked' into place before brazing
#2 is a Pro Miyata. Not bad for mass produced frame. Tubes are properly mitered. Some companies simply bend the tube over where it butts up against the other.
#3 is a Waterford Paramount
#4 is a Columbus SL Tommasini with tack welds
12-17-08, 01:37 PM
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yukon, Canada
Posts: 8,759
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times
in
14 Posts
I knew it couldn't have been #3 because it was just a little too clean. Incidendly that is what a marinoni looks like.. perfection!
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
12-17-08, 01:56 PM
#66
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
Open up a gas-pipe Atala if you want to see an extreme example of this. Solid threads in the BB, from one end to the other.
It isn't uncommon to find nice machines with threading marks from one end to the other though. Have a look the next time you're re-packing an Italian BB.
-Kurt
It isn't uncommon to find nice machines with threading marks from one end to the other though. Have a look the next time you're re-packing an Italian BB.
-Kurt
__________________
12-18-08, 07:58 PM
#67
Gaeilgeoir
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Holyoke, MA
Posts: 263
Bikes: 2003 Giant Iguana (ONCE yellow), '86 Team Fuji (Blue/Yellow), '87 Schwinn Le Tour (Frost White)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
12-19-08, 11:05 AM
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF
Posts: 1,572
Bikes: 1972 Paramount Track, 1972 Paramount P13 Road, 1972 Paramount Tandem, 1986 Paramount Road, Merckx MXL, Gunnar Cross Hairs, Samson Illusion NJS, KHS Aero Track, Titus Racer X 29er, Tom Palermo Custom Touring
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
2 Posts
The only lug shot I have of my 1983 3Rensho. I will try and get shots to compare it versus my 85ish Colnago Sprint and my 86 Paramount.
12-20-08, 08:40 PM
#69
Decrepit Member
1987 Paramount (Waterford) lugwork.
12-21-08, 05:18 AM
#71
Strong Walker
spot the gaspipe frame 
but i think its rather redundant comparing low price frames to the likes of Confente or 3Rensho, its not hard to spot that difference. What is more interesting, is to spot differences in high-lvl frames.
So, here's a little contest for ya, spot the Zunow, Mike Appel, Merckx and Casati (1st to not find the Zunow wins a pair of eyeglasses). Shouldn't be to hard!
I think these pictures show a lot about the art of framebuilding...
but i think its rather redundant comparing low price frames to the likes of Confente or 3Rensho, its not hard to spot that difference. What is more interesting, is to spot differences in high-lvl frames.
So, here's a little contest for ya, spot the Zunow, Mike Appel, Merckx and Casati (1st to not find the Zunow wins a pair of eyeglasses). Shouldn't be to hard!
I think these pictures show a lot about the art of framebuilding...
12-21-08, 06:58 AM
#72
.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,764
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times
in
14 Posts
Hanging around C&V I see alot of talk about frame craftsman ship, things like lug filing, brazing, paint etc. What I want to know is what does a great frame look like, and what does a poor frame look like? Take for example this Confente frame that just sold:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1
I have read comments in a previous post about there being some flaws in the build quality, what are they? What does a sloppy bike boom Raleigh look like, what does a good bike boom Raleigh look like? I am not asking this to be silly, I am genuinly interested in what I am asking. Are frames by Masi, Confente Mercx, Cinelli and the like of superior build compared to a Schwinn Paramount or Raleigh Professional? Or is it purely the mojo of a frame handbuilt in a small shop by a known master? Pictures help.
Thanks!
-Matt
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1
I have read comments in a previous post about there being some flaws in the build quality, what are they? What does a sloppy bike boom Raleigh look like, what does a good bike boom Raleigh look like? I am not asking this to be silly, I am genuinly interested in what I am asking. Are frames by Masi, Confente Mercx, Cinelli and the like of superior build compared to a Schwinn Paramount or Raleigh Professional? Or is it purely the mojo of a frame handbuilt in a small shop by a known master? Pictures help.
Thanks!
-Matt
12-21-08, 08:39 AM
#73
Rustbelt Rider
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 9,104
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times
in
177 Posts
Oh man.... that looks like a Raleigh fork?
Matt
Matt
__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
12-21-08, 10:16 AM
#74
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
12-21-08, 10:17 AM
#75
Decrepit Member
Are the lugs spot-welded on that Raleigh? The bottom of the head tube-top tube lug sure does look like it.