My understanding is that Ugo is one of the few who actually brazed frames ( and Iro ) throughout
his career. His son's were brought into the business and now do most of the building, but Ugo is still
present in the De Rosa shop day in and day out.

I know for a fact that at least on one day while my Pogliaghi was being built that Sante (who might or
might not have sold the name to Rossin at the time ) was in the shop and cast a cursory glance
at the frame, proclaimed ' magnifico, quello è perfetto, ora cronometra per caffè ' and promptly left the
building.
but, that doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful frame.

Quality is subjective. There's aesthetic quality and ride quality and both of those are subjective. Its like women....

Aesthetic: Blonde, brunette, big boobs, little boobs, big butt, little butt, pouty lips, long legs. Each guy is attracted to something a little different. Some of us like long point lugs some like short point, some like pantographing some dont, some like lots of chrome some dont.

Ride(social): Does your girl have table manners? Can she speak fluently? Is predictable or irrational? Some like long wheels bases, some like short, some like steep angles some dont.

Buy and ride what you like, not what others think you should like.

I'm in no way saying Ugo or any of the other builders didnt build frames I'm just saying its highly unlikely they built as many as some think they did. Seriously, knowing that Ugo brazed throughout his career is scary, bad eyes and shaky hands as one gets older isnt something to brag about.

Look at how many frames Dave Moulton built during his career, not many, and he didnt have a big company to run like the other guys. Perhaps John Thompson can tell us how frames he could built per day during his time with Trek.

Up until recently De Rosa was a small boutique shop, that's why one doesn't see gazillions
of old De Rosas out there. I think it was when they started getting into Alu and CF frames that
the production numbers really jumped. And even then Ugo's sons were involved in the actual frame
production.

Marty

Presumably correct, but thats what makes me laugh, in an old catalog there's an entire row of frames and Ugo's 3 sons sitting behind a desk pushing paper. No way did Ugo build all those. Propaganda propaganda, propaganda, its everywhere.

well the best italian reputation-up until the 70s of course had to be faliero masi!!!!anybody want to argue that point?

Weren't you the guy just asking me about pressed lug De Rosas? Just try finding one in your size. That's pretty much the slam-dunk answer to the "boutique builder" propaganda claim. (And no, none of the frames in the row in your photo has pressed lugs.)

A lot of knowledgeable folks would tell you he didn't build frames start-to-finish after the 1950's, either.

Why would you assume that this level of deterioration would necessarily happen? There are plenty of fine frames built by guys in their 60's and older. Sometimes, perfectly steady hands and eagle eyes are compensated for in other ways. I not long ago heard the Dizzy Gillespie Big Band play at the Blue Note in New York. I believe three guys in the band were in their 80's, and their energy and skill was unbelievable. They definitely got a lot more respect from the young guys in the band than you're giving Ugo.

You can dig beneath the hype and mine a lot of good stuff. Or, you can simply dismiss the hype and gain nothing whatsoever.
(Don't equate "Ernesto" hype with "Italian bike hype" - they're different by orders of magnitude.)
A lot of that "solo craftsman alone in his workshop" hype is an American myth that Italian producers simply taped in to. Stradivari wasn't the only guy to make his violins, either, but the "lone genius" image is a powerful one that folks are predisposed to buy into.

Happens everywhere. That's why there are "Eddy Merckx" bikes built in four or five different countries. MICMO in France (who also built Gitanes) kind of specialized in these types of bikes - "Anquetil," "Poulidor," "Geminiani," etc.

Because it does happen and it was more of a tongue and check comment. I've worked day in and day out with a variety of surgeons for 12 years. Some still have it in their 70's, some dont. Heck, there's some in their 40's and 50's who dont have it anymore. Me saying a frame builder may have lost talent as he aged is no more accurate or correct than you saying a frame builder hasnt lost it.

My point is, nobody realy knows who built what and who didnt. The publics perception is solely based on fact (what we know of it), conjecture, rumor and speculation.

You didn't say he "may have," you said "knowing that Ugo brazed throughout his career is scary." That's unwarranted, IMO, unless you have more to go on. It over-presumes. If there are some "in there 40's" who "don't have it anymore," why isn't it "scary" that Richard Sachs is still brazing? Answer: it's not, without making assumptions, and you know it.

Again, overstated. You posted a photo as "evidence" that Ugo wasn't a boutique builder "until recently." That depends on your definition of "recently." At the point where De Rosa was still using pressed lugs - the point where it matters at all, since this is the point where frames were still substantially hand-built - Ugo still had his hands on the frames, to an extent that goes well beyond what was true regarding many other "name" builders (Colnago, Masi, etc.). Throwing words like "conjecture, rumor and speculation" out there simply creates a fog where there really isn't one. Ugo was a small-scale, largely custom, pro-frame builder throughout the 70's. That's the fact. If you don't accept it, show me pressed-lug De Rosas for sale to the same extent that Masi or Colnago frames from the late-70's are for sale. That's as good a quantitative analysis as you can ask for.

Costs too much for me to do so, though I'll gladly take some pointers

-Kurt

Good answer. We all have only so many hours in the day, and have to assign our priorities.

well i was shocked i learned that confentes werent all entirely made by confente

When De Rosa was building 3000 frames per year in the 80's with a member of the De Rosa family at least taking a look at every frame before it left the factory, Colnago was building 20,000, with most being built by outside contractors with no Colnago oversight whatsoever.

Woohoo !! Correct word usage !!

Same here ..... I always thought there was a giant factory hidden somewhere in Italy, with Pinarello's coming out one assembly line, Botecchia's out another, Colnago's out a 3rd .....

But then I don't get star-struck much in general. However, I have seen lots of beautiful work by many small, independant framebuilders.

Precisely. Case in point, after spending way too much money experimenting in the first place, I found that Paramounts ride just the way I want my bikes to ride. Hence, I dug myself a rut and stuck in it (though I'll occasionally nibble on anything that seems interesting).

-Kurt

de rosa maintained his business as a small, family run custom fabricator well after the introduction of his microfusion italia investment cast lugset(late 1979).
he was the sole builder of all de rosa framesets until sometime around 1982/83 when his eldest son, danilo was first enlisted for production duties, initially doing the mitering and eventually brazing up the main triangle tubes. doriano & christiano became more involved soon afterwards for similar duties. during this period, ugo alone fabricated and installed all rear triangle assemblies as well as constructed the forks for each and every frameset until after the business moved out of the old 'bunker' and into the current factory location around 1987(?) at which point the company expanded to include a handful of production staff members from outside his immediate family.

1985 article from 'winning'- gratefully stolen from 43 bikes.com

I find this ongoing discussion interesting but IŽd like to know why you guys think it is so important if Ernesto did or didŽnt build the frames himself?
Myself, I couldŽnt care less really. As long as the frame construction is of high quality and made in the way Ernesto intended, what difference does it make if he or Rossin or someone else brazed it?
There are very, very few (to my knowledge) framebuilders that have been (or are) a one man operation. In Italy alone there were loads of excellent builders that hardly anyone outside Italy have ever heard of, they all built for someone else to make their living.

I don't think it's "so important." What that I wrote gave you that impression?

My understanding was that only one brother, Alcide, built the Basso frames. Regardless, there was definitely a Basso building frames.