well this time i have something completely different than talking about my vintage bikes. i just had a great conversation with one of americas best frame builders yesterday. this guy has been in the business for a very long time and is just a fantastic guy to talk with. no ego problems or anything like that for a person with his great reputation. anyway, during our conversation we got talking about italian frame builders-yes this guy owns a 60s masi speciale(trying to think of a way to get him to sell it to me). the big news to me is that he said ernesto colnago never made a frame in his life-or something very close to that.
i always thought that colnago built merckxs bikes and many others. does anyone out there know about this? did and does colnago in fact have other craftsmen build bikes and he sticks his name on them?
i know this is done all the time, i just never heard that colnago never built bike frames himself. there is no reason for this guy to make it up and he definately would know. anyway just thought id share that with you and maybe get some more info. on this. thanks again as always. joe

I believe you mean Cino Cinelli, who was not a frame builder. Ernesto Colnago did build frames.

AFAIK Ernesto was a Mechanic, not a frame builder. Most if not all Colnagos were built under his eye (or maybe down the road), but not under his torch.
I could be misinformed, however (that happens).

well unworthy, this great american frame builder i talked to comfirms what you say. colnago never made a bike frame! hard for me to believe but i would never second guess this gentleman. very interesting eh?

I think it's entirely plausible that Ernesto didn't build. Ernesto's greatest gift has always been promoting Ernesto. I also wouldn't take it 100% on the word of one guy, no matter how reputable, without at least a little more to go on. That said, I don't doubt that it's true. Just not 100% convinced, either.

But when Ernesto started out, this distinction didn't exist in the same way it does now. Lots of pro team mechanics built team frames, and lost of framebuilders also acted as team mechanics (Masi, De Rosa, etc.) If Ernesto did build any frames, I would bet it was as team mechanic for Molteni in the early-mid-60's, or perhaps for individual riders.

I may be wrong, but I believe Mario Rossin was the chief builder at Colnago during the Merckx era and may have built at least some of Eddy's bikes. Not sure when Raul Gozzi built Colnagos, but he would have been up to the task as well.

My understanding is that Rossin left his position as chief framebuiler at Colnago in 1974, to form his own company. His tenure at Colnago reportedly goes back into the 1960s, but I can't say exactly how far. I've read that he apprenticed under Poliaghi.

I agree that the definition of mechanic has changed or at least blurred in the translation. As previously suggested, most of the head mechanics for the pro teams were actually repsonsible for the frame construction. In fact one of Colango's tenures as assistant mechanic was under the tutelage of head mechanic Masi. Personally, I have little doubt that Colnago actually built frames, though just how long after establishing his own brand, is open to specualtion. Colnago's own literature mentions him apprenticing under Funagalli, then later moving on to Gloria where "he sharpened the art of welding".

As for the Merckx association with Colnago, that was 1971-1973, which is late enough in Rossin's tenure at Colnago that the later frames were almost certainly built by Rossin, if not all of them.

I'm pretty sure that Ernesto built bikes for racers but by the time there were Colnago labeled bikes for sale in shops he had people building them for him at his shop.

vjp

Ernesto Colnago apprenticed at Gloria. Presumably, he built frames, but then again, he could have just been an assembler too.

I would treat any Colnago literature with a huge grain of salt. I'm not convinced Ernesto built complete frames at Gloria, though he certainly may have done some welding.

I wouldn't presume that Ernesto built frames at Gloria. I'm sure he would be pleased at the presumption, though. His time at Gloria surely accelerated his peerless bicycle industry savvy as much as anything else.

And smart enough to get his name on the downtube.

I do think he was an astute observer and or bike designer. The Super was a trendsetter by all accounts.
A step beyond the Masi Gran Criterium, and obtained a tremendous following, long after the production numbers just did not allow the image of the small artisan builder to be upheld.

Hmmm...so those blue "Bottecchias" that were ridden by Gianni Motta and the Molteni guys in the mid-60's and the later blue "Molteni" bikes of the late 60's that look pretty much identical save for decals and head badge might not have been build by Ernesto? They don't resemble the later Colnagos. I always thought those were built by Ernesto and the later factory Colnago branded bikes perhaps weren't.

Grasshopper, look at the hands, look at the hands. After checking out Ernesto's hands, check out those of Ugo De Rosa or another legit old-time builder. If Ernesto built any frames himself, it was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... His brother Paolo may have built some at some time. The general scuttlebutt in Italian framebuilder circles is that Colnago likely never built a complete frame and most definitely not after 1970.

well that is amazing-kinda like learning there is no santa claus

That's why I can't stand the Italian bike hype.

There's only one Italian brand I've been sticking to - and only because I like the way they look and ride - and that's Basso. Sure, no snob appeal, but I like them (and that's all that matters).



-Kurt

kurt, your right. i had an old basso and loved it. wish i still had it but like an idiot i sold it. i dont think basso ever made a frame either. i think he was just an italian racer that always got beat by merckx and gimondi

That's right, one of their framebuilders - supposedly - was named D'Arienzo (hence the rebadged Bassos for Gary Silvas' bike shops down here, of which the example above happens to be). Not that I care. It rides well, and the workmanship is quite decent. I haven't seen a Basso yet that sinks down to the level of a "bad-day Colnago."

That said, there is an old saying that says every Italian plumber was hired as a framebuilder back in the '70s and '80s. I believe it.

-Kurt

Some folks just can't afford a great Italian bike!

Huh? I don't get how this fits in.

-Kurt

It was meant to kid you. Tell me why you hate the bad day Colnago.

now that doesn't jibe with what I've been told about the Basso brothers: three, but later one dropped out, siblings and two were both racers AND did frame-building too (to very high standards).
I'm sure Picchio and Citoyen will have the "dirt" on the Bassos...But the game in Italy has always been one of sticking a widely-revered racer's name on a bike that may be built by whoever has the bandwidth to fill the order...repeat next year, and so on. There are exceptions but still plenty of contract-built frames flooded the market for decades (and not to say anything against that: many contract-built frames are excellent).

Just becasue a guy doesnt braze the tubes together it doesnt mean a frame is junk. A quality ride has just as much to with tube selection and frame geometry as it does with who held a torch. Its possible to be great designer and to understand the physics and mechanics behind what makes a bike ride well or what needs to be changed to get certain characteristic but not be good with a torch.

I'll betcha most of these guys didnt put a torch anywhere near the number of frames we think they did. I was reading the De Rosa hype and how he was botique builder and only built bikes for certain people and teams blah blah blah but there he is standing in front of a row of frames. Sorry, but I'm not buying into it.

Plain common sense on all counts here. I tend to agree.

So maybe I should put this another thread, but hype/name aside, which major italian marques have the best overall reputation for quality (arguments about who actually built them aside)? Colnago, De Rosa, Guerciotti, Basso, Pinarello, etc?