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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 03-07-15, 11:01 PM
  #6626  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Yes, it's that way now. See amended post above with lateral view photo.
You are entirely right. I don't understand but gimme time and I'll figure it out...

But seriously, I can't remember the times I have seen Joe Rhubarb re-mount one of these reflectors with the fat side on the wrong end. Yours, decidedly, isn't that way. But, as Descon has said, there's no way to my knowledge that the Brits of the mid 50's would have oriented the reflector at that angle.

Must ponder this...
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Old 03-07-15, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Yes, it's that way now. See amended post above with lateral view photo.
Looks correct to me. I went and looked at the pics you posted on January 8 and the first in the set shows the whole bike from the right side. In that photo, it looks like the reflector surface on your bike is angled a touch above horizontal as compared to the Raleighs. As it seems to be the proper Phillips reflector and as it appears to be mounted correctly, probably just the way Phillips wanted it to be.
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Old 03-07-15, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Yes, it's that way now. See amended post above with lateral view photo.
OK, I think I've got it.

VV does the front edge of your rear fender have a bolt or screw that holds it to or near the BB or does it "float" with attachments only at the back stays and at the sliding whuts-a-ma-jig-it that holds the fender where it crosses the seat stays?

In your lateral view at 6581 it appears that there may or may not be a hard connection of the leading edge of the fender at the BB and if you look at the drive side lateral photo of our new, weathered but willing, Herc at 6608 you'll note the rear fender is 2.5 to 3.0 inches above the plane made by the BB as horizontal to the ground. And I can slide it fore or aft in the whuts-a-ma-jig-it.

IOW, the rear fender of these Birmingham built bikes "floated" to a degree... and that would explain the orientation of VV's reflector.
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Old 03-07-15, 11:52 PM
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First pic: note that the leading edge of the rear fender is 2.5-3 inches above the horizontal plane of the BB.

Second pic: shows the "whuts-a-ma-jig-it" that the rear fender can slide in, back and forth. That sliding could and would change the horizontal orientation of the rear reflector.

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Old 03-08-15, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate
First pic: note that the leading edge of the rear fender is 2.5-3 inches above the horizontal plane of the BB.

Second pic: shows the "whuts-a-ma-jig-it" that the rear fender can slide in, back and forth. That sliding could and would change the horizontal orientation of the rear reflector.

I think the "whuts-a-ma-jig-it" you're referring to is the adjustable sliding bracket that clamps on to the fender and attaches the fender to the seat stay bridge. Mine does not have that. My rear fender is bolted on at the bottom at the chain stay bridge (right behind the seat tube at the bottom), then has an "L" bracket at the seat stay bridge (where yours has the sliding bracket), then the rear fender stays are non adjustable and have a loop at each end where I've got an m5 allen bolt attaching it to the frame. I do see where my reflector is, in fact, not perpendicular to the ground.

Will I go to H*ll for this?! See....all these bikes are just quirky if you ask me.
Fender Reflector Phillips by velocivixen, on Flickr"L" Bracket at Seat Stay Bridge by velocivixen, on Flickr
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Old 03-08-15, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I think the "whuts-a-ma-jig-it" you're referring to is the adjustable sliding bracket that clamps on to the fender and attaches the fender to the seat stay bridge. Mine does not have that. My rear fender is bolted on at the bottom at the chain stay bridge (right behind the seat tube at the bottom), then has an "L" bracket at the seat stay bridge (where yours has the sliding bracket), then the rear fender stays are non adjustable and have a loop at each end where I've got an m5 allen bolt attaching it to the frame. I do see where my reflector is, in fact, not perpendicular to the ground.

Will I go to H*ll for this?! See....all these bikes are just quirky if you ask me.
Yeah, I saw the allen bolt that you have "retrofitted" and it looks nice from here. A really cool detail on your bike is that the wire fender stays are painted - an indication [and actuality] that yours is a "high end" version of British craftsmanship of the era.

Keeping in mind, of course, that they [the Brits] were then putting out wheezers automotively such as Morris Minors, MGTD's, etc. whilst any country boy in the USA could go out and buy an OHV Olds. Poncho, or Chevy... [which many did...!]
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Old 03-08-15, 06:19 AM
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Joining in the fun: the reflector on the Humber is a "Raleigh Industries" with a lovely RI embossed in the lens; the housing is quite deteriorated so can't tell if it said Sturmey Archer or Raleigh on it originally.



Note: Red relfective tape not applied by me and its hardened to the point it is almost impossible to remove. Same past owner used grey reflective tape on the down tube but fortunately it did come off (and provide a look at the relatively unmolested original colour).
@Velocivixen: I think your fender and reflector are exactly where they should be. But @PalmettoUpstate, I think your fender has been rotated too far to the rear. Someone left a 4" gap where the BB will not be protected from rain and road crap, andthe fender is likely to *direct* even more mess there. Meanwhile out back, the tip of the fender extends much beyond where I'd expect the fender to end. Without the attachment at the front tip (to the BB or the little cross piece on the chain stays), that rear fender will rattle like a wild thing. The "whatcha-ma-thingie" should grip the fender tightly once you position it where you want.

Oh, and while we are on the subject: my belief is that the upper fender mount (the "whatchmathingie") is supposed to be mounted so that it is mostly hidden under the brake bridge (ie. the two cut outs on the side are meant to align with the seat stays)....but I have seen both ways on what appear to be otherwise stock and unmolested bikes. On the Trek conversion I did, because there was insuffient room under the brake bridge I moved the bracket out like on @PalmettoUpstate's Hercules and it gave me a better fender line at the expense of unhiding the fender mount.

Last edited by markk900; 03-08-15 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 03-08-15, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate

Keeping in mind, of course, that they [the Brits] were then putting out wheezers automotively such as Morris Minors, MGTD's, etc.
Pffft!

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Old 03-08-15, 07:58 AM
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mine is a little newer but .

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Old 03-08-15, 08:46 AM
  #6635  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
How are you all figuring out what type/brand of rear reflector you have? I see @PalmettoUpstate mentions a couple of different kinds in a post above. I looked at the rear reflector on my Phillips & see no writing. Would it be on the back side?

Anyway, I move the dyno light wiring over the the left side of the bike. Cut electrical tape into 1/3 strips & about every 8" or so I wrapped around light wire/brake housing so it would stay looking "as one". Redid the light wiring a couple of times so it's not so evident. It may not look like it on the bike, but prior to this, when it was on the other side the extra wire was sort of wadded up. At least now it's done neatly. My bike has those SA alloy straps to fix the cable to the bike. You will notice on the side of the tail light the "SA" insignia is now upside down.
Additional cable Solution by velocivixen, on Flickr
Brake & Dyno Wire Routing by velocivixen, on FlickrWiring for '55 Dynamo Tail Light by velocivixen, on Flickr
Very nice attention to detail on this project.
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Old 03-08-15, 08:52 AM
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@PalmettoUpstate, your rear fender should be attached to the bridge between the chainstays. The thingamajig is called a fender bridge, and you should crimp it so as not to allow rotation of the fender.
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Old 03-08-15, 09:01 AM
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Old 03-08-15, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate
Anyone know where a [late 70's] Raleigh "Roadster" fits in the Nottingham firmament: https://newjersey.craigslist.org/bid/4909794169.html

Had they dropped the "Sports" model for that model?

And here's eye candy writ large: Vintage Royce Union Men's 3 Speed Bicycle 1962 Like New
The Raleigh in the New Jersey craigslist ad is a Sports; I wouldn't worry about if Raleigh did or did not change the name .
Technically Big Chief is correct, and on sites like Sheldon Brown "Roadster" refers to the DL1. Craigslist advertisers show photos so that even if they don't know the name of each model the picture clearly shows a later model Sports, not a DL1.

Raleigh firmament - note cost cutting measures by late 70's
Generic chainring - no heron
fenders are solid, not white at back
earlier Raleighs had westrick rims for use with caliper or rod brakes; these are the cheaper rims for calipers only
I expect each wheel has 36 spokes, not 40 back 32 front like the earlier Raleighs
front reflector mount is generic for CPSC reflector, not the heron light mount


Even so, the bike shows little use and should still last longer than new bikes from big box stores.


If the Royce Union has a Shimano 3 speed hub, is it still an English 3 speed? It's still nice eye candy.
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Old 03-08-15, 10:47 AM
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@English3Speed - if Royce Union is an English brand, and if your bike is a 3 speed, then IMO it's "an English 3 speed". I do think that English 3 speed implies a Sturmey Archer-esque hub, but the ShiMano is still 3 speed, so maybe it's "modernized".
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Old 03-08-15, 11:27 AM
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I thought Royce Union was Japanese and Sheldon confirms it. My image of Royce Union is that they were competing with Huffy, not Raleigh, back before the Japanese moved to the high end of the market.

Japanese Bicycles in the U.S. Market
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Old 03-08-15, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pfaustus
I thought Royce Union was Japanese and Sheldon confirms it. My image of Royce Union is that they were competing with Huffy, not Raleigh, back before the Japanese moved to the high end of the market.

Japanese Bicycles in the U.S. Market
Royce Union actually is an "American" brand that had bicycles produced by contractors over several decades. Some were made in England, some in Japan, some in the USA, some from Austria, and some in West Germany. Huffman/Huffy bought the brand eventually. The Sheldon page confirms that Royce Union sold Japanese-made bicycles, which is true, but it does not follow that Royce Union itself was entirely a Japanese brand. They sold bicycles made in several places over the years. I am not sure where the particular Royce Union in this thread was made. Royce Union bike parts also appear, again made in several places over the years.
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Old 03-08-15, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by English3Speed
The Raleigh in the New Jersey craigslist ad is a Sports; I wouldn't worry about if Raleigh did or did not change the name .
Technically Big Chief is correct, and on sites like Sheldon Brown "Roadster" refers to the DL1. Craigslist advertisers show photos so that even if they don't know the name of each model the picture clearly shows a later model Sports, not a DL1.

Raleigh firmament - note cost cutting measures by late 70's
Generic chainring - no heron
fenders are solid, not white at back
earlier Raleighs had westrick rims for use with caliper or rod brakes; these are the cheaper rims for calipers only
I expect each wheel has 36 spokes, not 40 back 32 front like the earlier Raleighs
front reflector mount is generic for CPSC reflector, not the heron light mount


Even so, the bike shows little use and should still last longer than new bikes from big box stores.


If the Royce Union has a Shimano 3 speed hub, is it still an English 3 speed? It's still nice eye candy.
I don't think the bike in the NJ ad is a Sports. I don't think it is a Nottingham bicycle, either. Notice where the fender stays mount to the dropouts. Fenders screwed to the stays rather than tack welded. Note the chain guard attachment. Labels are stick on rather than decals or painted.

There was a "Raleigh Roadster" for sale here in Houston a couple months ago and it looked a lot like the one in the ad. It had a sticker on it which said "Made for Raleigh." I believe the one in Houston was Asian made, probably Taiwan. We have a Taiwanese Raleigh Mixte 10 speed that looks a lot like it too. It's a decent bike -- sturdy and durable.

Although it seems that more often than not when someone speaks of a Raleigh Roadster they're thinking about the DL1, Raleigh used the term roadster for other bikes, too. For example, the 1948 catalog (https://https://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH..._cat_us48.html) refers to what we now think of as the Sports as the "Sports Light Roadster." Light, apparently, because it did not have a full chaincase.
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Old 03-09-15, 01:34 PM
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New front brake calipers on Raleigh Sports, with newly built-up CR-18 alloy rim. Yes, I know, it's not exactly C&V, but neither is getting a CT scan because the bike didn't stop properly. Gosh, it's nice to have modern brakes. 30 minutes or less to install, including new cable. I could have made the older one work, but why? Doesn't look bad to me.

This R559 only fits on the front. Need a bigger one (if there is one) for the rear. I think it's call the 800a or 880a or something like that.
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Old 03-09-15, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by desconhecido
I don't think the bike in the NJ ad is a Sports. I don't think it is a Nottingham bicycle, either. Notice where the fender stays mount to the dropouts. Fenders screwed to the stays rather than tack welded. Note the chain guard attachment. Labels are stick on rather than decals or painted.
I'd bet it was made in Taiwan in the early 80's. Taiwan-made bikes weren't very good yet at that point. This bike is not up to Nottingham snuff.
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Old 03-09-15, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by autoteacher
Pffft!

Hey nice Morris! There's a guy here in town, engineer for Michelin, who has a stable of these cars - including as I recall a pickup body. Is that a DL-1 in the boot?
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Old 03-09-15, 04:26 PM
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More details on the '58? Hercules... A Hercules-built hub or not?

I had put some info about this hub up when I posted the original pics but it had to be abandoned when I had to try to do the BF magic to try to align the pics and the text in that post. [Still don't understand exactly how these auto-format boxes work LOL!]

Anyway, the hub is marked "SW" and I assume this is the infamous SW - "seldom works" as anointed by the late great Sheldon Brown.

Next post will have a scan of all of the writing on the hub. The hub is ~51.68mm diameter wide around the barrel whereas the SA AW hub on my sister's newly refurbed 1978'ish Sports that is presently parked in our living room is ~58.12mm diameter across the center.


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Old 03-09-15, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983
Royce Union actually is an "American" brand that had bicycles produced by contractors over several decades. Some were made in England, some in Japan, some in the USA, some from Austria, and some in West Germany. Huffman/Huffy bought the brand eventually. The Sheldon page confirms that Royce Union sold Japanese-made bicycles, which is true, but it does not follow that Royce Union itself was entirely a Japanese brand. They sold bicycles made in several places over the years. I am not sure where the particular Royce Union in this thread was made. Royce Union bike parts also appear, again made in several places over the years.
Good to have that explained as I was certain that I had seen Royce Union frames with the somewhat standard "Made in England" decal on the top tube.

This bike, you can bring up the original listing and see some details, appears to me to be one of the British-built variants... Note the hub, fenders etc.
Vintage Royce Union Bicycle Girls 1970s 3 Three Speed Italy Sturmey Archer | eBay
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Old 03-09-15, 04:59 PM
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This scan has the inscribed text that is found on the Hercules hub seen in 6648 above.

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Old 03-09-15, 05:08 PM
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I may be ignorant about this, but I do not believe that here ever was a Hercules hub. IMO it was a licensed Sturmey-Archer design. SA allowed other manufactures to put their marques on hubs that were licensed AFASIK.
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Old 03-09-15, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dweenk
I may be ignorant about this, but I do not believe that here ever was a Hercules hub. IMO it was a licensed Sturmey-Archer design. SA allowed other manufactures to put their marques on hubs that were licensed AFASIK.
The guts look the same..
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